Episode 14 // Embracing the Baptismal Covenant: Insights from Peacemakers

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In this episode of the Proclaim Peace Podcast, Jennifer Thomas and Patrick Mason are joined by multiple guests to explore the baptismal covenant in Mosiah chapter 18 and how it calls individuals to be peacemakers. They discuss the personal and relational aspects of the covenant, emphasizing how each person can contribute to adding peace to the world in their own unique way. Through examining the experiences of Alma and the outcasts he taught, the episode highlights the importance of coming together in afflictions and being willing to bear each other's burdens.

Timestamps

[00:00:36] Baptismal covenant and peacemaking.

[00:06:09] Media interpreting religious texts.

[00:08:14] Counter-narratives in media environments.

[00:10:00] Setting boundaries against algorithms.

[00:13:18] The active call of discipleship.

[00:16:23] The baptismal covenant.

[00:20:40] Shifting internal perspectives.

[00:24:49] Understanding the importance of covenants.

[00:28:34] Empathy and compassion for peacemaking.

[00:32:33] Conflict resolution in Fiji.

[00:34:35] Women's issues around climate change.

[00:40:42] Jesus as the ultimate peace builder.

[00:43:14] Baptismal covenant and peacemaking.

[00:48:31] Main tension points in society.

[00:50:14] Peacemaking and baptismal covenant.

TRANSCRIPT

(00:03-00:06) Jennifer Thomas: Welcome to the Proclaim Peace Podcast. I'm Jennifer Thomas.
(00:06-00:15) Patrick Mason: And I'm Patrick Mason. And this is the podcast where we apply principles of the gospel and read the Book of Mormon to become better peacemakers.

(00:15-03:06) Jennifer Thomas: Over the last few months, we've been so lucky to hear from guests who have generously shared their professional experiences connected to the work of peacemaking. The wisdom shared in these conversations has already significantly changed how I think, act, and work in relation to other children of God. That's going to continue today, but this episode will be a little bit different. We're still doing our deep dive into the Book of Mormon, exploring the ways it can inspire and instruct us as we strive to live a more peaceful life, but we're going to break things up a little bit by talking to several people instead of just one. We'll be exploring the baptismal covenant found in Mosiah chapter 18 and how that covenant calls these people to be peacemakers. It made sense to Patrick and I to talk to several people precisely because that covenant is personal. It's relational. We each have the privilege to fulfill it in our own field of influence. And as we do that, we most certainly each add peace to the world. This covenant was first shared with the people taught by Alma. They were outcasts. They were harassed and hunted and probably had a great reason to fear. And yet in that moment, he invites them to come closer together in their afflictions. In Mosiah 18, verses 8 and 9, he lists the qualifications for the covenant. He says, As you are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another's burdens, that they may be light, yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn, yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things and in all places that ye may be in, even unto death, You're ready to be baptized. That's a robust list. And when I was younger, I thought about standing as a witness as a word sharing exercise. As a believer, it was going to be my job to testify of Christ and articulate my decision to be a disciple. But with time and experience, I've come to interpret the covenant as one of active, intentional engagement with others. It's much less about words than it is about deeds. I am invited to come into a fold or a community, and then I have to mourn. I have to comfort and witness through how I love and treat others. And so now all of these things have become central to my identity as a peacemaker. Today, you'll get to hear from four different people who are acting on this covenant in a range of ways. Changing how they act on social media, working to heal personal relationships, showing sensitivity for cultural difference, and exhibiting compassion and curiosity in one of our nation's zones of cultural and political combat. They're all making peace because they believe their covenant calls them to. We hope that this episode is a reminder that we must all do the work of peacemaking, quote, at all times and in all things and in all places. And that, as James Baldwin so beautifully put, there is never a time in the future in which we will work out our own salvation. The challenge is in the moment. The time is always now. We think you're going to really enjoy this episode.

(03:08-04:16) Patrick Mason: In this segment, I'm really excited to be joined by Mason Allred, who's going to help us think through peace and Mosiah chapter 18 from his perspective. So let me introduce him a little bit, and then we'll dive right in. Mason Kamana Allred is an Associate Professor of Communication, Media, and Culture at Brigham Young University in Hawaii. He worked for a few years at the Joseph Smith Papers as an editor before joining the faculty at BYU-Hawaii. And he teaches courses in the theory and practice of media and really at the heart of what he tries to do is to teach students how to be better creators and consumers of media. Given that the media is writ large, right, whether we're talking about movies or TV or, of course, social media is oftentimes a purveyor of conflict. I thought it would be amazing to bring on Mason to talk about how we can think about media as a form of peace building and actually how we can approach media more productively as peace builders. So Mason, tell us a little bit more about you, about what peace building looks like for you, especially in your relationship to media.

(04:16-05:23) Mason Allred: To just be really honest, I love media. I love movies, always have loved music. And I've just found for me personally that these have become connective tissue between me and other people, ways that have kind of inspired me to want to promote more peace in the real world. So when I enter the classroom or enter like in conversations with people, it's often media that's kind of inspirational in helping me to find ways to feel more love and gratitude and then to let that kind of spill out into the way that I interact with people. So it's kind of a no-brainer for me that I'm always turning towards media as a way to teach students and myself at the same time, how can we do this in ways that are productive? Because as you mentioned, oftentimes if you want to make money off media, if you want to be successful, it kind of goes in the other direction, you know? And so peace is not always the most profitable way, but it's certainly the most fulfilling way, and I think it's what we're called to do as disciples of Christ. I feel very strongly that we're supposed to be consuming, critiquing, creating, and using media in ways that would promote that kind of peace and foster it throughout the world. And I know that can happen. So I love being on the kind of helping end of that.

(05:24-06:09) Patrick Mason: I love that because it is easy sometimes just to say, oh, there's like so much violence or there's so much polarization. There's so much kind of toxic stuff that happens in media spaces. So there's, there can be an impulse to just like walk away, right. To, to just wash our hands of the whole sordid mess. But I love that you're saying like, no, this is actually a really powerful way to, for connection and for bridge building and ways that we can find peace. You read Mosiah 18 in a way that I frankly had never considered, I think, especially because of your expertise about media. So can you kind of walk us through that a little bit? When you read Mosiah 18, this language of the baptismal covenant, the creation of a Christian community there, through a lens of media, through a lens of peace building, what do you see there? What lessons do you take away from it?

(06:09-07:29) Mason Allred: I do, and I'm not trying to pretend like this is what's meant in the text, but I think a kind of interpretive way, a kind of lens, one way to look at it that stands out to me is to think about the catalyst that leads to Alma's change here because it's huge and we all love it. So instead of zeroing in on the verses that I think are super powerful which are like that we need to learn to comfort those that say I need a comfort and that sort of thing, I'd actually like to get a little bit before and a little bit after and think about them in terms of media. So I would sort of begin Actually back in chapter 17 leading up to 18, where you have Alma in this situation with King Noah, sort of in that court with those priests, listening to Abinadi, who's very much a dissenting voice, unwelcome, and difficult to hear. That's got to be hard on the ears for all of them, obviously. But for whatever reason, Alma listens. and it changes him. And he speaks up and he goes and writes these things down, he does something about it. And so I think it's maybe a nice jumping off point to really think about one of our primary roles, if you want to fill a piece, if you want to promote a piece, is we actually have to be really good active listeners. And it's not always interpersonal like it's happening with Abinadi and Alma, so I'm actually going to interpret that and push it more in the direction of immediate environments and through media channels. How can we maybe be better active listeners that can enjoy the same kind of catalyst towards progression, self-development, and certainly the promotion of peace.

(07:29-07:43) Patrick Mason: That's fantastic. So what are some specific things that either that you see in the text or just things that you've learned over the years in terms of how people can be good listeners with media, kind of in the trajectory of peace building?

(07:43-08:12) Mason Allred: So one of the things that you can immediately draw from that interaction between Abinadi and Alma, and it's one that's been really powerful in classroom instruction and exercises with students that I've had, but also in my personal life, and that is what you see here, and you can already see the way I'm trying to frame it and the way I'm explaining it, but that Abinadi sort of enters this, what's called a media environment, and I'm gonna take all these people and make a media, but let's say if we were on social media or something, that Abinadi enters as kind of a counter-narrative. He sort of goes against the grain, and this in these terms.

(08:12-08:14) Patrick Mason: Telling people what they don't want to hear.

(08:14-12:54) Mason Allred: Telling people what they don't want to hear. Like that's not what's supposed to pop up on your For You page or your Explorer feed because it doesn't fit what we would think would target you, what you would like to get more engagement or get more dopamine going. So you can almost kind of read it like working against the algorithm. And this is a tactic that we all really actually need to learn. If we stay passive in our consumption and our listening here through media, then it can lead to, as we know, these kinds of echo chambers and bubbles and this sort of a thing. And we don't want that. And that can lead towards more polarization. And even though it sounds like you're getting a nice tight-knit group where you can all be upset together or sad together, it actually can lead to more loneliness and disconnection. So the fact that Abinadi's voice penetrates that silo and that Alma listens is, I think, the first lesson to us that we actually have to learn to deliberately work against the structure and algorithms of, I'm speaking now of social media specifically, we have to learn to do that, to listen outside of it, to seek ways to get beyond what we would just generally be spoon-fed, and Alma's doing that. The other thing that I think is really important is a technique that we get to practice is I'm going to stick with social media for a minute, and then I'll widen it from there. But just because it's, I think, one of the main drivers of contention for people. It's a site that gets very fraught and loaded with all kinds of emotions. So another key thing to do is if you're going to enter any kind of a King Noah arena that you know is just kind of full of strife, contention, potentially, is you've got to have a clear purpose of why you're going in, what you're going after. Go straight for that and try to minimize distraction. Go after that thing and then get out. We know by studies that when people do this, then there are actually reports afterwards or that it wasn't so toxic. It doesn't lead to as much depression, anxiety. It's when we go in kind of aimlessly, like, I just want to unwind. I'm just going to scroll or something. And that's when you get these reports after where people just feel worse about themselves, basically. So, having a clear purpose, working against the algorithm, you get in after that purpose, you get out, that's very empowering. That brings much more peace in our own lives to feel like, hey, I can control what I'm doing. The other one is when you're going to be in these kinds of environments that are structurally built to keep you engaged and to get you upset often. You gotta have ways to set limits, and these are what's called like stopping cues, like things that would remind you to stop and to get out. Because often, the point is it makes a lot of money to get you engaged in ways that are full of fear, full of anger, which is antithetical towards peace. So, we need to be able to think this through and to set limits for ourselves. Like, let's say if I'm just going to scroll, it's actually, and you know, I've had amazing changes in students just over the course of a semester that they report, where if you just set some kind of a limit where I'm going to scroll mindlessly, okay, as long as it's a reward after doing something difficult, like I'm going to do my homework, then I'm going to scroll aimlessly on TikTok, but I'm setting a timer for 15 minutes. That is incredibly powerful because then you feel in control of that time. And even if you're not looking at the best content in the world, it is kind of trashy and stupid, but because you set it up as a short little reward that you're going to get in and get out. that actually works quite well and you're not going to feel like you're ruining yourself, your time or others in doing that. So, work against the algorithm, go in with a clear purpose, get out, set time limits or cues, you know, just tell yourself I'll never have my phone when I'm talking to someone or I'll never have my phone at the dinner table or whatever it is. Set those for yourself and stick to them. Let others hold you accountable. And then on top of that, we need to find ways to listen better to great sources and then as I said, those that kind of go against this. And I just remember that Man, I had a loved one in my life who, and this was around the COVID pandemic where a lot of this was happening, but, you know, sent me some stuff that in my estimation was quite misinformed and sort of dangerous. And that can be very tricky of how we deal with that, right? And so being able to listen and try to think of like where they're coming from, why would they? feel so strongly about this? Why would they believe this? Instead of a kind of defensive mode has been really powerful too. So to kind of consider the context, the intentions of people, and to always remember to prioritize those people over the media. And in that one particular instance, I remember having to kind of just call them up and just said, hey, I love you so much that you matter way more to me than any kind of theory or idea or even virus. Like, I love you so much. And that was really powerful for us both to kind of like transcend that potential media conflict. So I think that listening that Alma's doing with Abinadi is really powerful.

(12:54-13:46) Patrick Mason: I love that. Thanks for sharing that too, because I'll bet you're not the only one who's had a similar experience like that. So, you know, in Mosiah 18, in the baptismal covenant there, it's There's also an active call, and you mentioned it earlier, to what we're called to do in terms of spreading love and peace and comfort in the world. So when you look at that, there's always, with social media in particular, there's always like a share button, right? I mean, that's like the active call. They want you to not just be a passive consumer, but then to pay it forward, so to speak. And for them, it literally is paying, right? There's a money incentive there. So how do you think about that? How do you connect this in terms of the active call of discipleship in Mosiah 18 and think about that through a media lens?

(13:46-15:17) Mason Allred: Yeah, and that is a wonderful feature of social media. And I hope that we all have felt that and know that, that certainly this is an opportunity to hear from people we never would have heard from, but to then also have a voice in certain spaces that you normally wouldn't have. And so that is absolutely part of that call. And I feel that strongly too, that if there's anything I'm going to click on, post, share, engage with. I already, for myself, need to be in the right frame of mind. I think I have the right intentions and hopes and desires when I do that, and to consider what I'm about to do. Again, if it's mindless, it just so quickly devolves into toxicity. So to your point, we do, we are called to do things, but we also can't pretend like we're going to change the world with a few clicks and to simplify or oversimplify some of these issues. So I think we have to be on guard to not become a pawn in a larger game. of pushing certain agendas, but also maintain some kind of hope and love towards realizing that I can make a difference, that I can have a voice. And so it's kind of, I think, developing some sense of discernment of where that's worth it and where it's actually not going to do much. And that's kind of a case-by-case basis for everyone. But I do believe that's really important to realize that we can engage through this as well and that we can be part of that wave of positivity, working towards peace.

(15:17-15:59) Patrick Mason: Yeah, that's terrific. So I mean, it really can be a place, social media can be a place where we mourn with those that mourn, we can comfort those who stand in need of comfort. And of course, there's the witnessing and testifying part of that as well, right, in lots of different ways. And maybe the best witness and testimony we give is in the quality and character of our interactions. Exactly. Are we interacting in a way that testifies of our discipleship? Well, Mason, we could be here all day, but thank you so much. I mean, I love this in terms of thinking about this text, this passage that we love so much, but through a way that's really relevant and maybe in new ways can help people think about their walk as peace builders. So thank you very much. Absolutely.

(15:59-15:59) Mason Allred: It was great chatting with you.

(16:02-16:40) Jennifer Thomas: Heidi Applegarth is joining us from Omaha, where she lives with her husband and five children. About five years ago, she returned to school to get her degree in marriage and family therapy, which has been life-changing for her in many areas, particularly in terms of relationships and how she sees herself in relationship with others. So we're very excited to have her here today to share her thoughts with us about Mosiah chapter 18 and the baptismal covenant. So Heidi, let's just start a little bit there. I'd love to hear at the very beginning what that covenant, as it's outlined in those chapters in Mosiah, in that specific chapter, means to you personally.

(16:40-17:34) Heidi Applegarth: As I've reflected on this and looked at it, I think there are multiple pieces to it. Often we think of mourning with those that mourn and comforting those who stand in need of comfort. And I think the thing that stuck out to me was also standing as a witness of of God at all times and all things and in all places and essentially the trickiness actually of that to some degree because that might look different with different people and it's a very individual process and to me standing as a witness also includes honesty and so that can sometimes feel conflictual with you know mourning or grieving or other things when we're trying to be with people in those circumstances, but also helping them progress in the best way they can from those difficult positions.

(17:34-18:14) Jennifer Thomas: So I'm really interested in that in terms of, I think sometimes one of the ways we tend to keep the peace is to not be honest, right? We just aren't fully honest about things, and that's a way we have of keeping peace. Can you tell me a little bit more? I mean, it sounds like the way you've thought about this covenant has expanded. as you've kind of, I guess, had life experiences, and also maybe your idea of what it means to bring peace has changed. So I'm wondering if maybe you want to share some of your experiences around that, about how mourning, comforting, standing with others at different times has changed, and how you've kind of overcome different ways of thinking about that.

(18:15-18:42) Heidi Applegarth: Yeah, you know, it's funny. The first thing I thought of when I was preparing for this was actually how difficult this is to keep. And I think it's difficult for different reasons than most of us think of, in that I think often I've thought I was doing it. And so when I reflected on times that I've like really not done this well, it's the times when I really thought I was and then that was not actually the reality.

(18:42-18:52) Jennifer Thomas: So that's super interesting to me. Tell me more. So you you feel like the moments when it didn't quite work were sometimes the moments when you felt like you were actively trying, but maybe didn't know exactly enough to get there.

(18:52-20:28) Heidi Applegarth: Yeah, I mean, it's the moment. I mean, I think that's the hard part is it's very nuanced, right? Like, we can show all the right actions, but actually be doing it for the wrong reasons, so to speak. So the example that came to mind is when I was first married. Well, I mean, I'd been married, actually, probably a decade and had little children. And my mom and I, our relationship was really, really difficult. It was very fraught. We kind of disagreed a lot and it was contentious and I really was not happy with where it was so I had like a three-week period where I was close to my mom because I don't live near her now. I really was like determined to kind of figure this out like how could I make our relationship better And so I went in it thinking, okay, I'm just going to like do all these things my mom wants me to do. I'm going to really try to like make my mom happy, you know? And so as I was going through that, I would like clean her house and, and, you know, I felt actually prompted to do that and I didn't mind doing it. And my mom was appreciative, but it was like, no matter what I did, I just felt like it wasn't enough for her. And Now I can look back on that and realize like, it wasn't me loving my mom as so much as it was me trying to get my mom to love me. And I was really trying to get her to affirm what I was doing. And so I felt like I was loving her. But in all reality, I was very much trying to extract love from her. And there's a difference.

(20:29-20:55) Jennifer Thomas: I think this is a really interesting idea and I think it is relevant to peacemaking because sometimes we want to impose peace on other people and we think we're being peacemakers, but instead what we need to do is step back and ask ourselves, what is the shift in myself and ourselves that would allow us to create and bring peace? So I'm wondering if you could share with us some of the internal shifts that happened as you kind of made those adjustments.

(20:56-22:32) Heidi Applegarth: Yeah, it actually was interesting when I was reflecting on this, because I hadn't thought about it for a long time. And as I was looking at it, I realized it was actually in a time period, my mom had lost her stepdad. Now, she was not particularly close to him. And I don't think she really referred to him as her stepdad even a lot of the time. But it was still a really difficult time for her. But it was interesting. I feel embarrassed about this story, but I feel like it's really important because I didn't see it clearly until I'd kind of screwed it up. Here I am trying to like really work on my relationship with my mom and her mom had asked her to come and clean out all of his stuff after he had died, like very shortly after he had died. And so I had a lot of little kids so she didn't really ask for my help in that because I wouldn't have been much help at the time but she asked my younger sister and my younger sister had to work and then we went to the pool. We went and played so my sister said no and we stayed back and we hung out you know and then I got a call that my mom had actually been in a car accident on her way home. She'd fallen asleep and you know and luckily she was like Very close to home and she just rear-ended someone at the last stop sign before home. So she broke her thumb. It wasn't anything too serious My dad when I talked to him on the phone, you know, I was anticipating the blame like Anticipating like my mom being upset because like we didn't help her out.

(22:32-22:34) Jennifer Thomas: So you kind of went into it a little defensively. I

(22:34-24:13) Heidi Applegarth: Yeah, I did. And like I, you know, but interestingly, I called in a very like, Oh, how's mom? You know, I really I showed like a good face. Beginning, right? I was like, How's mom doing? What can we do? But then my dad asked the question, or he just made a statement like, Well, if you could just turn back time. And I took it as an opportunity to kind of jump on him like, why dad? What would be different? Like to defend myself and my sister for our choice. Right. And I knew when I got off the phone that something was wrong. Right. It just, and I'd been reading actually an article by Terry Warner called What We Are. and trying to apply it. And in the article, it talks about if you feel anger towards someone, you need to think about what should I be doing and do it right away. That was kind of one of the premises. And so I really took that and I'm like, what should I be doing? And I was like, this is easy. Like I should be feeling deep empathy for my mom right now. Like if I really loved my mom, and this was really about her, I would be feeling empathy and compassion, not anger and defensiveness. And it really did flip a switch for me in that moment, because I realized how much I'd been like, like I had seen her as not being very loving towards me, but I totally missed my part in that I, I had not seen myself as an equal in that at all, you know, and I see this in my couples all the time. And so it's a very common dynamic, we just,

(24:14-24:49) Jennifer Thomas: It's easy for us to see ourselves as the good guy, you know, as the good person and the other person is the person that's falling short. So what are the internal shifts that we can make to sort of check ourselves as we're trying to be peacemakers, as we're trying to fulfill this baptismal covenant to mourn and have compassion for others? What are the internal checks that we can make to make it less likely that we'll not only make the kind of, you know, mistakes that you feel like you made in this situation, but just like you said, how can we course correct quickly when we do?

(24:49-26:37) Heidi Applegarth: Yeah, I mean, I really think that when I was reading about the covenant that these people made part of the reason, like, the important part is why they wanted to do it. You know, they wanted to make this covenant because they had learned of a love that someone had for them that was so deep, right, that they that God gave his only begotten son. And you look back at what Abinadi was teaching, and it was about a man who had loved so much, but he was despised and rejected of men. He didn't get that reward, so to speak, of people seeing him. Some people saw it, but a lot of people missed it. But it didn't stop him from loving them that way. So I actually think to answer your question, I think that one of the big things we have to do is actually see how loved we already are. Because it's really, really difficult for us to be willing to look at those actually kind of ugly parts of ourselves. If we don't know that essentially the cost was paid for that, sometimes we really try to avoid seeing it because it's really painful. Like reflecting on that moment for me is not, you know, it's not my best side and it's really not the side I like to share. But the beauty of it is that I know the price was paid. And so it makes it a little easier, a little more digestible, so to speak, when I know that God knew that that's how it was going to be. So I think having the humility to recognize we are all human, and we're all going to make mistakes in this area. And generally, if we're feeling a lot of anger or resentment towards someone, it's likely we have something to do with it.

(26:38-27:52) Jennifer Thomas: So I love what you talked about, kind of leaning back into how loved we are. And I think that as we move into peacemaking situations, I mean, there are situations where we really are trying to make peace with our enemies. But I think just one of the things you've highlighted from the story is I think that some of the most challenging efforts at peacemaking happen with people we we love or that we're in a relationship with or that are our family members, ward members, you know, fellow citizens and saints. And I think that one of the things that I loved about what you just shared is that it's really great if we can start from a point of knowing how loved we are. And there's two sources of that. The one you just talked about is this divine love is really tapping into how much we're loved as we as we move forward into these complex relationships. But I also think it can be really helpful to us to remember how much often the people that we are in relationship with have shown love for us in the moment, usually when we're in conflict and having pain, right? That's not what we're highlighting. We're like, oh, this person has hurt me, or they haven't met my needs, or they didn't meet me halfway. But kind of pausing to reflect the times and the places when those people have shown us great love, I think, makes fulfilling that baptismal covenant a little bit easier.

(27:53-28:34) Heidi Applegarth: Yeah, or I will add to that that sometimes maybe they haven't, right? Like, luckily, it's my mom. So I can find a lot of ways my mom has loved me. But there are other circumstances where there has really been very little warmth or compassion from that person. But if I can, and I think this is part of the challenge, if I can move close enough to them to get to know them better, and to get to know what makes them tick, so to speak, I often can better understand why. Like, what is it that has prevented them from this? And I feel like that really gives me compassion for where they are instead of being angry that they are where they are.

(28:34-29:04) Jennifer Thomas: Well, that is just lovely. Thank you. I think that one of the things that we've learned over the last few months of studying the scriptures through this lens is that one of the greatest sources of peacemaking is empathy and compassion, right? When we really try to feel empathy and compassion for others, it puts us in a position of being much more able to act as a proactively as a peacemaker. So thank you, Heidi. It's been lovely having you with us today. We're so grateful that you could take the time to talk with us and share with us your personal spiritual experience. So thank you.

(29:04-29:05) Heidi Applegarth: Glad to be here. Thanks so much.

(29:08-29:59) Patrick Mason: All right, I am really excited to have my friend David Whippy. So David Whippy is an assistant professor of intercultural peace building at Brigham Young University, Hawaii. He's currently the director of the David O. McKay Center for Intercultural Understanding. He's got a great portrait of David O. McKay there behind him. In this role at BOE Hawaii, he teaches courses in intercultural peace building and directs the work of the McKay Center. He's also a trainer and facilitator in the field. He works with NGOs and other partners on various programs and projects and curricula. And a lot of this work is in his native Fiji. where he was born and raised in very much in a kind of multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-religious background. And I know that David, you spent a lot of time back there in Fiji, in addition to living in Hawaii. So thank you for joining us. I'm thrilled to have you.

(30:00-30:00) David Whippy: It's good to be here.

(30:00-30:31) Patrick Mason: Okay. Well, let's dive in. So I'm guessing that, you know, most people will have some sense of what you do as a professor, right? You teach classes, you train students and so forth. But can you talk a little bit more about your work as a facilitator, as a trainer, some of the other kind of work that you do in the field, especially in Fiji, where you're from, and maybe even talk about the kinds of conflicts that are present there in Fiji and that you address in your work?

(30:31-32:33) David Whippy: I, as much as possible, I try to, I feel that it informs me as a professor if I go and get my hands, figuratively right, get my hands dirty in the field. I'd like to go back to Fiji and work with NGOs on the ground. A lot of the conflicts that they're dealing with previously have been around multi-ethnic, multi-religious, as you said, and multicultural issues, right? And this has been the case ever since. I don't want to blame it primarily on colonization, but since that era, Fiji in particular has faced these sort of issues going forward. It has come up in the instability in government. It has also come through in And there's an undercurrent of ethnic issues that goes throughout the country. And I don't want to prescribe that on Fiji entirely, but you can see it with different organizations for different ethnic groups. There's a sense of unity, but it can be better. And so as much as possible with what I've learned in the academic space, I'd like to take that. I have taken it back to, like I said, these NGOs. I've tried to inform curriculum by, oh, this given input, I recognize as much as possible that they're the experts on the ground. And I can't go in and tell them, hey, do it this way, do it this way. I try to combine what I have with what they're already doing to hopefully better the work, to hopefully better the facilitators. I train the facilitators on how to do things. We use some of Dangerous Love of Chad's model and his book in that space. And so it's been a real good experience. As much as possible, also, I try and get in my role as the David O. McKee Center Director, taking over from Chad. I've sent our students down to the Pacific because as much as they can help, they can also get that experience. In Fiji, we've sent students to Samoa, Tonga, Kiribati to learn. And just to find out, this is peace building in the field. It's different from what we're learning in the classroom. And it also gives that opportunity for them to, how do I say this, solidify their peace building testimony, right? Um, so it's been, it's been a good experience for me.

(32:33-32:50) Patrick Mason: That's fantastic. So can you give us an example, like a really specific or concrete example of the kind of, of conflict that you've seen, uh, in, in Fiji that you've worked with or, or maybe helped other people, uh, work, work through and in some of your trainings.

(32:50-35:12) David Whippy: Yeah, definitely. Prior to coming into, uh, to, to BYU and there's still a project is ongoing. We developed, uh, we, the organizations that I work with, um, work at the grassroots level. And at this time in the Pacific, there's a lot of, some of their main conflicts are on climate change and the climate and the issues that come because of climate change. We've lost our land here. We've lost our fishing grounds here. We've lost our source of, of sustenance or source of food here. And so how are they, how are they adapting to that? And so as much as possible, I'm going to give them a shout out here because I feel that they're doing a lot of work in the Pacific, the Pacific Center for Peacebuilding, has a model where they are going to these different communities. And so on my previous visit in December, I worked with their facilitators because they were doing a woman-run workshop, a series of workshops. I recognize I'm not a woman. So I recognize that I'm not. If I go into that space and I facilitate, women may not be as forthwith in sharing some of their issues and sharing some of their concerns. So my role was to train as much as possible the the women facilitators that were going into that space and give them that that as much resources as possible as much of the knowledge that I have to be able to facilitate that space and so women from different communities how that organization did it was they started off in the the Indo-Fijian or the Fiji Indian community and they also started out with the Itauke which is indigenous Fijians and so they after separate workshops they brought them together to a space which doesn't to a singular space that doesn't usually happen in Fiji, right? Part of it is because of the role of the woman in that patriarchal society. And so they have to be very clever around, we're going to do it before school finishes because women primarily are picking up children from school. We're going to do it, we can't do it at night because they're primarily, and I don't want to say this in an insensitive way, they're primarily the person that's cooking dinner for the family. And so they had to do it in a place where it just goes, just after children were dropped off, just before, after lunch, and finish off just before school. So that's one of the quick examples. It was women's issues around climate change and how they can be, not only be at the table, but the decision makers at the table in these patriarchal societies.

(35:13-36:05) Patrick Mason: I love that, and I love the creativity of sort of working with what you've got, right? You can't just like snap your fingers and change all of Fijian society. It's like this is the hand that we have, these are the cards that we have, and this is the way we're going to work within that, those constraints and within those structures. Let me ask you, because I assume that actually a lot of the people who listen might resonate with that kind of grassroots work that you do, like very local level. But sometimes people can also feel frustrated, like there's a sense like it seems so small, it seems so local, like I'm just one person, right? I just live in my community. I, you know, I'm not the president. I don't work for the UN. I don't, you know, do all those kinds of things. So talk about how you find meaning and value and purpose. Why is grassroots peace building so important?

(36:06-37:50) David Whippy: Definitely, great question there. So from the space I'm in and working in, grassroots peace building is very important because of the potential it has to move people at that particular space. I believe that the majority of, you can say, people coming up to the election year, people walk, people vote with their feet. A lot of the core issues you can really see at that grassroots level, And what we've tried to do in these different spaces that I've tried to be involved with is we've involved some of these bigger players that you can see at the upper levels, right? We'll include similar to state representatives, but in Fiji and the Pacific, they call it provincial or regional. We have to get permission from them to go into their different spaces, but we involve them. Hey, come on in. If the community is comfortable you being there as an observer, come on in and observe some of these conversations because As much as possible, this will help you do your work better in these communities. And so we'll involve some of these key stakeholders. And then our role is, if our organization is primarily working at the grassroots level, as much as possible, we'll look for other organizations to, and I think this is a big key word in peace building, collaboration. We'll pass it off to another organization that has the ear of our mid-tier, I'm going into letter rocks, our pyramid here. our mid-tier and our upper-level stakeholders. And so they are the ones that can take what's learned with some of the representatives of our spaces and going to talk to our state leaders. And if there's an opportunity to get it to our country leaders, that's with other organizations who may have that capacity that the organizations that we work with don't have at that particular time.

(37:50-38:44) Patrick Mason: Yeah, so great. So a lot of the work happens just at that local level, but you're always looking for connections and collaborations. Who else is working? How can we connect horizontally, vertically? I love that. So I know that one of the things that's really important to you in talking with you is a sense of vocation, a sense of calling and purpose in the work. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, especially in connection with this episode around Mosiah chapter 18, around that baptismal covenant that the people made at the waters of Mormon, and of course, the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make when we get baptized. So So how does your identity as a Christian, how do those covenants that you made, those promises that you made as a Christian, connect to your incredible work in Fiji and Hawaii as a peace builder?

(38:44-40:26) David Whippy: I definitely feel that my identity as a Christian, my identity as a Latter-day Saint, helps me in my peace building work. Right throughout the Mosiah chapter 18, it talks about, you know, the Spirit's going to be with you. I think if we listen to this every Sabbath, you know, in the sacrament prayers that you're blessed with the Spirit. I feel that I can't do the work that I'm in right now with Peace Building without the guidance and without the whisperings of the Spirit. Many a time I've been working in different communities, working in the classroom here, and I definitely feel that the Spirit has spoken to me. I always go in with a prayer. I think that's important. especially when I'm going into communities, I think it may be easy, I don't want to label it this way, but in a church institution, looking at BYU, Hawaii, sometimes we take that for granted. But going into spaces where there's no LDS presence in the community, where we're going into a space where there are other religions that are dominant in that particular space, I feel that that can be a There can be a bridge built there between our Christian beliefs, but I also just feel that if I don't go into that space with the right frame of mind, meditating and also going in, praying and asking for the Spirit, I won't be as effective as I am. I can be in that space. I recognize that, yes, I may have done the training. Yes, I may have the skills. But it's related to scriptures, that's where it brings all things to our remembrance. It allows us to be, in a lot of ways I think of this, it allows me just to be an instrument, you know, in the Lord's hands. If the Lord is for me, if I'm building peace, I feel like in a lot of ways I'm doing the Lord's work.

(40:27-40:42) Patrick Mason: I love that, and that if you are, as we've oftentimes heard from church leaders, if you're on the Lord's errand, then you're also entitled to His blessings and His support and His help, and the Spirit becomes one way that that happens, right?

(40:42-41:46) David Whippy: So true. I have a funny memory growing up, and again, Jesus Christ is the ultimate peace builder, and it's always good to be able to look at somebody and look at divinity, but also recognize the characteristics that they have to be able to, that I can, you know, I can take on myself and be a better peace builder in my space. I remember growing up, I had my cousins staying up the road and, you know, we'd play superhero games, right? And somebody would say, well, I'm Spider-Man. Well, I'm Batman and I'm Superman, right? And then somebody would say, well, I'm Jesus. That'll be it. You know, nobody, we can't argue with that because we'll say, so Jesus always won. And for me, that was always, okay, why do we always want to be Jesus? And that because of the characteristics that he had, obviously he died for our sins, but just the way that he did his, and you talked about this in previous podcasts and also in your book, just the way that he was able to portray himself and build peace is something that I'm trying to follow that path and walk it also.

(41:47-42:24) Patrick Mason: Well, thank you, David. That's phenomenal. I love that insight. I love that sense that actually part of being a covenanted Christian means doing the kind of work that God asked us and calls us to do, which includes the work of peace building and and that His Spirit will be with us as we do that. So thanks for everything you do. I just want to recommend everybody to kind of check out the program at BOE Hawaii, all the amazing work that's happening in the McKay Center there, not just in Hawaii, but all around the Pacific Rim and South Pacific and really all around the world. So thank you, David, for all that you do. Thank you, Patrick.

(42:26-43:14) Jennifer Thomas: We'd like to welcome Meredith Gardner here to speak to us today. She is the Director of Media Literacy at MWEG and a dear friend of mine. She lives in Austin, Texas with her husband and five really adorable children. She has some really extraordinary, I think, experiences to share with us today. I'm particularly interested in hearing from her because I think she has a unique vision about what this baptismal covenant means and how we can actually act upon it. So I just want to start by kind of asking that question from you at the beginning here. Merith, would you just tell us a little bit about what the covenant that's found in Mosiah chapter 18 means to you personally, and maybe a little bit of how you have expanded what it means to include peacemaking?

(43:14-45:12) Meredith Gardner: Yeah, absolutely. So the baptismal covenant has a lot to do with becoming one and building Zion, in my opinion. And I had this experience back in April, where I went down to the southern border, McAllen, Texas, and Reynosa, Mexico, with a group of about four other Amoy leaders. And we knew that the elections were coming up and that there was a lot of rhetoric about immigration happening, and we wanted to see for ourselves what was happening at the border. So what we did was we created this trip that would help us see immigration through a broad peacemaking lens. So we met with not only people who are waiting to cross the border from the Mexico side, but also people who worked at a detention center. We met with border patrol officers. We just met with a really broad range of people. And it was really impactful because when we talk about standing as witnesses of God and bearing one another's burdens, we're not just talking about bearing the burdens of people we feel the most sympathy for or empathy for. We're talking about bearing the burdens of everyone. And some of us might have strong feelings about people who are trying to cross the border, or we might have strong feelings about border patrol. But no matter what, mourning with those who mourn and comforting those that stand in need of comfort, It applies to everyone who is mourning and standing in need of comfort. And it really taught me to see the humanity in everyone. And it taught me a lot about the interconnectedness of myself with all of these people, just in general, in God's kingdom.

(45:12-45:29) Jennifer Thomas: This sounds like it was a really kind of life changing experience. And I'm wondering if maybe there are one or two anecdotes that stood out to you as moments that changed your perspective, maybe asked you to think differently about, you know, something than you had before.

(45:30-48:30) Meredith Gardner: Yeah, absolutely. So I can think of a couple of things. So one was from the perspective of Border Patrol, for example. We were able to meet with Border Patrol. They were able to give us some information on the work that they do and the resources that they have, the resources that perhaps they're in need of, and kind of what the day-to-day work life is for them. And it was really interesting because I asked them the question, what do you wish people knew about you that maybe they don't know? And they said, we want people to know that we're people too, that we have feelings, that we're not robots, that we're here to do this job. And a lot of our job involves humanitarian work. It involves rescuing people who are stranded. It involves buying McDonald's for kids who we find alone in the desert. And it just really brought. It just really hit home to me that these border patrol agents, it's very easy to group people like border patrol or people like immigrants into this narrow point of view and think of them as one type of person. And they're really not. They're all individuals, just like the rest of us. Kind of from the other side is we were able to meet with people who are waiting to cross the border on the Mexico side and they were living in a tent camp along the banks of the Rio Grande. And they were just feeling really hopeless and feeling like wandering if God was there for them, feeling desperate for hope or for information. They were living. It was smelly. The ground was covered in trash. There were flies everywhere. There were stray dogs. They were living in blanket tents. And it's really heartbreaking to go into that situation and wonder where God is for them. And one thing that we were able to realize as we were there with these people, and we were able to visit with them, is that God was there for them through us. and that we were being a witness of God for these poor people who are waiting to cross the border legally, and to go into the country the right way, and been waiting months without any information, and they couldn't work. They were destitute, and it was hard to see the good in that situation. It felt like we were able to be there for them, to stand as witnesses of God for them, and then in turn, feel of their strength and benefit from their example of hopefulness and wanting to do things the right way and wanting something better for themselves and their families.

(48:31-49:21) Jennifer Thomas: So one of the things I think that was interesting to me about wanting to share this experience is that it really marks, I think, one of the main tension points in our society right now, right? People have sort of very clear ideas about what they think about this issue. And it's those situations when people have such strong opinions, right, that seem to be almost inimical to peace. So I think one of the things I would love to have you share is did you learn anything there, I guess from this process? Did you learn anything from this process that invited you to get perspectives from two different opposing groups of people? Did you learn anything in that process about what it means to be a peacemaker and how getting good information from lots of different people can help you in that endeavor?

(49:21-50:12) Meredith Gardner: I absolutely learned from, especially from my colleagues who planned the trip, that peacemaking is bold and that peacemaking steps into situations that are uncomfortable. and asks for perspectives that we might not have and we might not share in order to understand the broader perspective of what's involved in an issue, how people are suffering, how people are trying to alleviate suffering, and that if we aren't willing to step forward boldly and to be willing to talk to people, that maybe we're even afraid of or intimidated by, that we can't get the full picture on how to alleviate suffering and how to live out our baptismal covenants in the fullest extent we can.

(50:14-50:30) Jennifer Thomas: So it strikes me that in this way, peacemaking is very much like the baptismal covenant in the sense that if we want to mourn with those that mourn, we have to be with them, right? We need to be willing to get close to them and understand what, you know, really is at the root of their suffering.

(50:30-50:46) Meredith Gardner: Absolutely. And then we have to be willing to share what we've experienced. and try to do so in a way that doesn't make us about us, it makes it about them. It centers their own humanity and their own suffering.

(50:46-50:56) Jennifer Thomas: Well, thank you so much, Meredith. This was really a wonderful experience to hear about, and I'm grateful that you had the courage to do it and share it with us today. So thanks for joining us.

(50:56-50:56) Meredith Gardner: Thanks, Jen.

(50:58-51:17) Patrick Mason: Thanks everybody for listening today. We really appreciate it. We just want to invite you to subscribe to the podcast and also to rate and review it. We love hearing feedback from listeners, so please email us at podcast at mweg.org. We also want to invite you to think about ways that you can make peace in your life this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

(51:23-51:38) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for listening to Proclaim Peace, a proud member of the Faith Matters Podcast Network. Faith Matters holds expansive conversations about the restored gospel to accompany individuals on their journey of faith. You can learn more about Faith Matters and check out our other shows at faithmatters.org.