Episode 25 // The Power of Community in Peacemaking: Lessons from the Sermon on the Mount with David Whippy

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In this episode of the Proclaim Peace Podcast, hosts Jennifer Thomas and Patrick Mason are joined by BYU-Hawaii professor David Whippy to reflect on the New Year and their renewed commitment to peacemaking. They discuss the importance of the teachings of Jesus, particularly focusing on the Sermon on the Mount and its counterpart in the Book of Mormon, known as the Sermon at the Temple. They share thoughts on what it truly means to live a Christian life, emphasizing the need for a heartfelt transformation rather than merely adhering to external observances. Join them as they explore the principles of the gospel that can guide us to become better peacemakers in the new year.

Timestamps

[00:02:22] President Carter as a peacemaker.

[00:04:04] Sermon on the Mount.

[00:10:07] Cultural definitions of peace.

[00:11:18] Empowering women in peacebuilding efforts.

[00:17:00] Peacemakers and their significance.

[00:20:12] Peacemakers as children of God.

[00:25:05] Managing anger as peacemakers.

[00:27:12] Personal reflection and conflict resolution.

[00:31:17] Reconciliation through personal reflection.

[00:35:22] Turning the Other Cheek.

[00:41:11] Community support in conflict resolution.

[00:44:11] Loving your enemies as peacemakers.

[00:50:05] Identifying our enemies and neighbors.

[00:52:54] Enmity creation and manipulation.

[00:57:14] Forgiveness and personal responsibility.

[01:01:09] Vocation and peace building.

[01:03:41] Making peace in your life.

Transcript

(00:03-00:05) Jennifer Thomas: Welcome to the Proclaim Peace Podcast. I'm Jennifer Thomas.
(00:06-00:12) Patrick Mason: And I'm Patrick Mason. And this is the podcast where we apply principles of the gospel and read the Book of Mormon to become better peacemakers.

(00:15-00:17) Patrick Mason: Jen,

(00:17-00:28) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you. New Year, renewed commitment to peacemaking. I have decided there's actually no other way that I can really approach 2025. So I'm grateful that this groundwork is being laid.

(00:29-01:29) Patrick Mason: Fantastic, and so we wanna invite everybody to join Jen in her New Year's resolution. I'm gonna try and do the same thing myself. We thought as we were starting, we're in the middle of the season, but starting a new calendar year, and we're thinking that there's no better way to do so than to be reminded of and to dive into the teachings of Jesus. and specifically what I think, I don't think I'm alone in this, his greatest sermon, his most famous sermon, the Sermon on the Mount, which he also gives in the Book of Mormon in 3rd Nephi, it's known there as the Sermon on the Temple, or I should say, it's also known there as the Sermon at the Temple. So Jen, I mean, I love these three chapters. I assume you do too. I mean, they're just so powerful in terms of forming a Christian life, right?

(01:29-02:59) Jennifer Thomas: Yeah. I've been thinking a lot, Patrick, about what it looks like to live a Christian life. And I think sometimes we can get caught up in what it looks like to be very pharisaical, for lack of a better word, that I can get used to saying to myself, oh, if I take these steps and do these things and check these things off that are observances that I'm actually living a Christian life. And what I always have to come back to is a reminder that the only way to ultimately live a Christian life is to have my heart changed and to have all of my actions be manifestations of this deep and profound belief in Jesus Christ. And this has really brought home to me in the last couple of weeks, which I think is probably true for many of us, when President Jimmy Carter passed away. And my initial immediate response was, that is a person who absolutely Christ has welcomed with open arms, that they knew each other, they understood each other, that Christ said, you know, welcome home, my good and faithful servant, you have truly run your race. And it made me think about whether the people in my life at the end of my life would say that same thing about me. And I kind of reflected on the qualities of him, of President Carter that made that so evident to me that he was a true disciple. And so many of them are truly because he was living up to the standards that we find that are laid out for us here by Christ in this sermon. And so I've just sort of starting the new year with a renewed desire to take them seriously.

(03:00-04:15) Patrick Mason: Thanks, Jennifer, for bringing up President Carter. Talk about a life well-lived, right? And I think it's really important for us to honor and point to the examples of other peacemakers that we can take lessons from their lives. Now, most of us are not going to be former presidents of the United States, right, with all of the gravity of that office and all the kinds of networks and connections that President Carter had. But I think you absolutely put your finger on it, that actually what made him so effective and so influential was the way he went about it, right? There are lots of former presidents, there are lots of former heads of state, but he really, I think, embodied and took seriously the values and principles that Jesus was teaching in this sermon and applied that, especially to his life after the presidency. And I think that's the question that we really want to talk about, is whether this sermon, the Sermon on the Mount, is for real. Is this just starry-eyed idealism, all this talk of peacemakers and loving your enemies and turning the other cheek? Is this just some kind of utopian ideal? Or does Jesus actually mean it?

(04:16-04:58) Jennifer Thomas: I think you're absolutely right, Patrick. It's a question that people have wrestled with for generations and continue to wrestle with to this day. Does Jesus actually mean what he says when he asks us to do these extraordinarily hard things? I think you and I are here today because we believe he does. And I think we believe that if we take him at his word, that not only will it transform our hearts and souls, but it will transform our societies and we'll be productive in enormous amounts of peace. And when the angel says that on peace on earth, goodwill, I think he really, the angel is in fact saying that Christ and his message and the way he acts will bring us peace. So today we just want to do a little bit of exploring about that sermon with someone who understands it and has spent a lot of time with it.

(04:59-06:40) Patrick Mason: Yeah, and we'll be focusing especially, of course, as Latter-day Saints, we have the Sermon on the Mount twice. We have it both in Matthew 5-7 in the New Testament. Actually, there's a version of it in Luke as well, and then we have it in 3 Nephi 12-14. We'll be reading mostly from the Book of Mormon version of it. It's basically the same as what we see in the New Testament, with some interesting differences. We're not going to dwell on those and focus just on the message that Jesus is giving us. And as Jen said, we're really grateful to have a guest. He's been on the podcast before, briefly, on a previous episode, but we wanted to do a full episode with David Whippy, who's one of our good friends. David Whippy is an assistant professor of intercultural peacebuilding at BYU-Hawaii and is the director of the David O. McKay Center for Intercultural Understanding there. He teaches a wide range of courses that sound amazing on transformative mediation, nongovernmental organizations, and peace building, peace education, and peace ecology. He has a bachelor's degree from BYU-Hawaii, a master's degree in diplomacy and international affairs from the University of the South Pacific, and is in the process of finishing his PhD through the National Center for Peace and Conflict Studies at the University of Otago. just an absolute expert. But he's not just an educator and a professor in the classroom, but David also works extensively as a trainer, facilitator, and peacebuilding consultant in the field, especially in his native Fiji. So we're really lucky to have David with us to discuss the Sermon on the Mount today. All right. Well, David, with me, welcome to the Proclaimed Peace Podcast.

(06:41-06:42) David Whippy: Aloha. Thank you for having me back.

(06:43-06:55) Patrick Mason: Hey, thanks. We are so glad to have you, especially now for a full episode. We begin our conversations with each of our guests with the same question. How do you define peace?

(06:55-10:27) David Whippy: That's a really good question. And I feel in being in this, you know, I want to pull it from different spaces, being in the academic space and As of right now, you know, I've had the kids at home on holidays for the past two weeks, so peace right now is not having them fight over toys, right? Peace is going to the office. That's it. Yeah. It's taking them out to ride their bikes that Santa bought them, right? Not any service roads. But when I think about peace, I think obviously I i fall back on my my cultural background um and some of the terms that come to mind when i think about me so um one of the first ones is which means kind of a restful peace um another one is similar to another word called ruru is is of a picture of looking out to sea and the sea is almost flat it's like glass so there's no wind there's no breaks there and so that's you know in different dialects from the from the the district and province that i am from that's what they'll say oh oh you know it's maravu it's peaceful um and then for the academic space thinking about, and I believe we shared, Dr. Ford talked about this in a previous podcast, about one of the first things in our introductory classes that we have students do, and when they come into it, our program is, hey, let's get your definition of peace. so that we can share that and we take them to the scriptures also, being obviously a BYU, an LDS school, and say, look for instances of peace within the scriptures. And it's amazing how students from different cultural backgrounds come up with their own peace definitions. And so you heard some individuals come in, especially because we're placed based in here in Hawaii, a lot of people come up with aloha. And what that means, and they dive into the deeper intricacies of what that word means in the sharing of breath and being in each other's space, the sharing of spirit, and then they contrast that. And I know, you know, Chad talked about this earlier with how we and those that don't do that. And so it's for our introductory classes, it's a good start to see where students are at. But the question for me is, it's around peace, right? I, again, peace. And I remember something that my dad talked to me about when I was growing up, and he was in the He was, I would say, a goodly man, a devout member of the church, tried to read as many materials as he could around peace building. And one prophet that he, I don't know if this is the politically correct thing to say, but one of his favorite prophets, if you can say we have favorite prophets, was John Taylor. And John Taylor talked, President Taylor talked about peace, in essence, is coming to God. And so as you come to God, as you get closer to him, then you get, you feel and you be more in a state of peace. And I've always thought about that, thinking about Vakavengu of rest and peaceful rest, thinking about Maravu and looking out at the sea and it being peaceful. So those have gone into my definition of peace as it sits, you can say, as an anchor point. But again, it may change next week when classes start here at BYU and I talk about peace. So I hope I answered that question.

(10:27-11:06) Jennifer Thomas: Yeah, no, it really does a great job. And I think one of the things you've highlighted that Patrick and I have learned over this podcast is that peace often has a cultural basis to it, like our understanding of what it feels like to be at peace. And I think it really expands and illuminates our perspectives when we hear from other people about what it looks like in terms of the way they've been taught to think and experience it. So I think we'd love to hear a little bit more about that from you. And I'm wondering if you would be willing to kind of start up this conversation with telling us more about your work as a peacemaker, particularly with the issues that you work on in Fiji and the way you approach them in sort of a very culturally sensitive way.

(11:07-14:28) David Whippy: Yes, thank you for that, Jennifer. As much as possible, I have I started off, you could say, my professional career in the NGO, non-governmental non-profit space, working around the areas of peace. I started off with Save the Children in Fiji, and my particular area was to work on education and health and creating safe spaces for children within underprivileged and informal communities. And what we found was one of the key factors in play to work with the children was actually to have dialogue and communications with their mothers, right? Mothers are great, they have influences on their children. And we found in our interactions, in our surveys, in our workshops, that as we work with the women in the spaces, there was, it was more conducive to pieces that make sense. And so our priorities, our goals and objectives kind of shifted a little bit because we focused, we recognized that working with the mothers in these different communities, granted the men were important in a patriarchal society like Fiji, the men made a lot of the decisions, but we recognized that In a lot of those spaces, the women were, in a sort of way, leaders in the home, and they were responsible for taking care of the children, and what the children ate, and where the children went to school, and things of that sort. And so our work with the women in these communities greatly helped our work to save the children, the organization, and the Pacific Center for Peacebuilding. accomplish the goals that we had with regards to these different spaces. And I recognize that being male, that my input may be minimal because I recognize that going into these spaces that women need to be, not need to be empowered, but they feel, and I may be, I'm speaking the gospel of David right here, they may be more open to communication and dialogue if I wasn't in the room. And so as much as possible, we empowered ourselves, our women facilitators, our leaders in the organizations, to really dictate what the plans and what they wanted from the women in conjunction and collaboration with the women in these communities. And so that was eye-opening to us, and that's something obviously our funders were from Australia and New Zealand and other offshore countries. And that's something that we communicated with them, which they may have overlooked, thinking that primarily it was we would be catering to the children. So I went on a little bit of a tangent there, but I hope I answered that question. I, as much as possible, I try to go back and give, share the conceptual side, the research that I've been doing so that they can share and possibly get internships for my students because I feel that's where the benefit of education comes with the in-classroom and the outside practical work joined together there.

(14:29-17:00) Patrick Mason: Yeah, that's fantastic. And I love, and I think that's a great illustration of the diversity of approaches and places where peace work can show up. It's not just the narrow mitigation of direct violence or signing peace treaties or something like that. International conflict. Yeah, right. The working in local communities to create opportunities for children, equitable opportunities for them to empower women, to be able to bring all of their gifts and talents within community spaces. The piece requires all of us. And so when we're doing this kind of work, and so many NGOs do great work, and WEG is a great example of this, by the way, of letting people bring their full selves and their talents and their voices. That's all piecework. So thanks for sharing that in your particular context. So we want to spend most of the episode talking about the Sermon on the Mount. This sermon that if you're a Christian, especially if you've been raised in a Christian church and a Christian context or in a family, you've heard these phrases and these teachings, maybe you've read these chapters lots and lots of times. As Latter-day Saints, we have it twice in our scriptures. We have it in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon. But we really wanted to dive into some of these passages and really ask the question, try as much as possible to look at them with fresh eyes and to say, what is it that Jesus is calling us to hear? In what I would say is the greatest sermon ever given. So we're just gonna go through some of these passages. Again, the people have heard lots and lots of times But our invitation to listeners is to say, try to listen to these phrases, to these passages with new ears. And David, you're gonna help us do that. All right. So the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, of course, Jesus gives us the Beatitudes. all the blessed are those statements, the meek, the poor, those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, et cetera. But towards the end, he says, unblessed are all the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. David, when you hear that verse, what does it evoke for you?

(17:00-19:01) David Whippy: It's a good question. I, and I'll go again on a little bit of a story. I try to read the scriptures and with my children, both in English and in Fijian, where we're from. And the word that they use for peacemakers in Fijian is nduartataro. And what that means in a lot of ways is, you know, and this, this, these characteristics may, may sound familiar. It means to be an advocate, to be an intermediary, to be an intercessor, to plead on behalf of someone, you know, and I'm thinking, okay, who does that sound like in the scriptures? And who do I want to be like, if I'm going to fit that, that particular role of the peacemaker, right? And I think that speaks to, you know, this is something that I taught in a class here where we use, Patrick, where we use your proclaimed peace and the draft copies of, as we wait for Chad, 70 times seven. And, you know, the students love that class. Those are both of the ticks that we read in the class. And then we go through it. And in a lot of ways, they're singing the same song. And we ask the students the same thing, okay, what does it mean to be a peacemaker? That's where we start. So to me, it has almost a call to action. Okay, if I want to be a peacemaker, and these are the characteristics that I identify from my culture, to be an advocate, to be intermediary, to be indecisive, to plead on behalf of someone. I need to be more like Jesus Christ. I need to try and as much as I can be like Jesus Christ. And you talk about this in proclaim peace and Chad echoes this a lot in 70 times seven. And so that's where we, that's what one of the initial thoughts that came to me as I thought about, okay, a peacemaker and then the blessings that come to it afterwards with the truing of God.

(19:01-19:50) Patrick Mason: Yeah, that's amazing. I love those, that's incredible. And I'll say, I talked about this a little bit at the Faith Matters Restorer Gathering this past year, but it was only fairly recently that I realized that out of all the Beatitudes, the Blessed are the peacemakers, it's the only one where Jesus specifically calls us to action. All the others are a state of heart and a condition of our heart, a condition of our soul. And it just underscores that all those words that you use, David, that are evoked from the Fijian word for that is to advocate, to intercede, to mediate, again, all things that Jesus does for us, for the things that we do. It's not just blessed are the peace lovers, it's blessed are the peacemakers. So thank you for that. Yeah, Jen.

(19:51-21:11) Jennifer Thomas: Yeah, I just want to add that one of the things I love about this particular verse, the way I've come to think about it is I think there's sort of two ways to be the children of God, right? There's my birthright inheritance that I just have because inherently I'm a person of worth and value because I have heavenly parents. But I think in the way Christ is talking to us here, he's talking to us about when we will be with him again and whether he will recognize us as his. And that is, that is, what being a child of God and entering into His presence and being with Him eternally will look like. And I love the way that you just described with that insight from your translation that that peacemaking if we want to be called the children of God then we have to have been intercessors we have to have acted just like Patrick said in the way that Christ acts on our behalf we have to have actively done that on behalf of others if in the end we want him to recognize us as his so I'm just really grateful for the way you've illuminated that for me because that I think is the for me at the core of peacemaking is the desire that at the end, Christ will recognize me as his, because I tried to act in a way that mimicked him insofar as I was capable.

(21:12-23:08) David Whippy: Yeah, thank you for that. I mean, I can remember thinking about this when reading it this time, and I believe I had similar thoughts. When you look at it, it starts off with maybe some of these best things as you look at it. On verse 9, it says, you know, shall we call the children of God? And you think, well, aren't we all You know, a child of God, we've seen about that in primary. And then you kind of look at the other ones. Oh, if I'm, you know, the meek shall inherit the earth. And not that it's a competition. The pure shall see his heart. And then, OK, the peacemakers shall be called the children of God. Not that it's a competition, but then you think, oh, well. is there, what does that mean? So I said, what does it mean to be children of God? And Jennifer, you talked about that, and I think Patrick talked about that also. There's a great talk, and again, this is part of the research that I've done, April 2022 from Elder Neil A. Anderson, talking about following Christ and being a peacemaker. And allow me to read this here, because I think it's important for me to understand this. This is as you go towards the start of the talk, he says, His promise is that we will be called the children of God. For every person on earth is the offspring of God, but to be called the children of God means much, much more. As we come unto Jesus Christ and make covenants with Him, we become His seed and heirs of the kingdom, children of Christ, His sons and His daughters. And kind of again, like Patrick and you were saying Jennifer, Allow me to heal with new years. Okay, there's a responsibility. If I want these blessings, then I have to do these things that you both articulated. I have to put my, in other ways, get my hands dirty, maybe work in some communities, advocate, mediate, be intermediary to allow me to get to this place where I can be rightfully called or blessed to be, as it says in the scriptures, children of God.

(23:08-23:13) Patrick Mason: Great. Well, shall we move to the next passage? Go ahead.

(23:13-23:14) Jennifer Thomas: This is a hard one.

(23:15-23:20) Patrick Mason: Okay, Jen, I'll let you take it then. I'll let you do all the hard ones.

(23:22-25:37) Jennifer Thomas: Well, so peacemaking is lovely. And, you know, we've just talked about all of these ways that we can try to work and identify as this. But the second, I think, verse that we want to talk about a little bit is found in 3 Nephi chapter 12, verses 22 through 24. And this is where Christ says, but I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgment. Therefore, if ye shall come unto me or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I will receive you. This is one of those verses that I think gets right at the absolute core of what it means to be human, because I think being human means we're angry a lot. Whether we like it or not, it means that every time we're rubbing up against people to degrees of frustration or anger, we find ourselves irritated. I think sometimes it's really easy not to resolve those things. But one of the things that's been clear to me as I've been reading this scripture again, with an intent to really think about what it means to be peacemaker, is it's changed the meaning of this phrase, is anger with his brother without a cause. I actually have come to the realization that a lot of the times that I think I have a cause, I might not actually have a cause. And in the sense that as you work on peacemaking work, you come to realize that so much of it is based on people's interpretations and how they experience things differently than you are. So I would just love to have you share with us your kind of in your work as a peacemaker, How can we moderate anger? What does it look like to go to people and be reconciled to them? What does it look like to interrogate ourselves and the causes of our own anger? And what is the role of us doing that in a way that will ultimately, again, allow us to be received by Christ? Because I think it's that same thing. We want to be received. What does it look like to manage our anger in a way that allows us to be received by Him. Because I think human beings, we tend to just ignore this message from Christ and be like, I am justified in my anger, I will be angry, right?

(25:38-25:57) David Whippy: Yeah, that's a great question. That's something that I, you know, the natural man that I struggle with every day. And one of my goals actually for this coming year is to as much as possible put off a natural man and be more peaceful in the spaces that I am and in the relationships that I am also. So that's a great question.

(25:58-26:03) Patrick Mason: Tell us how you do at the end of the year. We'll have you back on.

(26:07-29:55) David Whippy: I think one thing that I've learned in the spaces that I've worked in and also with my family dynamics and the relationships that I have is we don't like, and maybe I'll speak for myself, I don't like to see myself in a negative or bad way. I don't like to see myself as being the perpetrator of something, of a conflict, or the starter of a conflict. And so as much as possible, I will justify why I'm angry, like you said, Jennifer. I'm justified in my anger because she or they did this and this towards me, so I can be angry. And I'm allowed to be angry, and I'm going to be angry. What I found is that, first off, it doesn't, you know, being in that state doesn't, isn't conducive to me getting to a peaceful relationship with the person that I may be in conflict with. I also recognize that being in doing family and mediations and contrasting that with doing work in communities and bringing, you know, bringing communities that have different ethnic identity or religious backgrounds and diversity in those spaces. And this is from my, this is the Gospel of David, it's a little bit, I think it's a little bit harder to do it in family dynamics. Because you may feel, like I said, my identity is being, they're attacking who I am as a person. And so what I try to do in a lot of these spaces, even in the community spaces is, hey, let's start off with having a look at ourself. you know and not only uh just uh just uh i like to say a trailer look at ourselves but let's take the long movie version and let's have a look at ourselves where are your values you know what's what's what's why are you angry at this time whatever you feel has been um offended and and try to try to um work your way through that. And so a lot of the workshops that I've had the privilege of working with some powerful facilitators in the field is we start off, we spend a lot of time, if it's a three-day workshop, we'll spend almost the first day on that because you recognize that understanding the foundations of who we are and why we are the way that we are. Where are your cultural values coming from? Are they also religious values? Because it tells a lot. I think it provides insight to people that are in conflicts. um and you know sometimes um being a natural man why are we spending so much time on this we here to argue about these different villages or these different communities why are we spending so much time on the personal aspect of it that's as far as the child now that i'm an adult and grown i can't have seen the worth of these things and I recognize that as people make peace with themselves, they are better able to make peace not only with people in their own relationships, but also that close relationships and people that they may not be in their inner circles or have those close relationships with. And so I've been a big advocate for, let's start off with looking at yourself. You may not We don't encourage, we don't actually be shared in these spaces, in my classes, but I want you to have an understanding of who you are and what brings, what brings conflict into your life, what brings peace into your life before we move on and take these other steps that you can do to build peace or be peacemakers around you. And part of that is, hey, what makes you angry? You know, what, you know, whether it's sometimes the people that make us angry the most, our siblings and our brothers and sisters, and they know in a lot of ways, you can say they know the, they know the switches to fit to get you into a certain state. I have a four year old and an eight year old.

(29:56-29:58) Jennifer Thomas: You can push your buttons, man.

(29:58-30:38) David Whippy: Oh my goodness. You know, somebody tucks with somebody's Barbie and that person wasn't even playing with their Barbie. It's on. Or somebody wears someone's cardigan. Oh my goodness, you know, and then we have to be… I've broken up a lot of conflicts in my house just on wearing people wearing each other's clothes and so I like to talk to my kids and again, Mervis in this space is like, hey, let's talk about how you can bring peace into your life and how you can be a little bit more of what of what Heavenly Father wants you to be and be closer to Christ. Sorry, I blabbered on a little bit there.

(30:38-31:59) Patrick Mason: No, that's, I love that. And I think, yeah, every single one of us wrestles with this. It is part of the universal human condition. One of the things that struck me as I read this verse this time was, you know, Jesus says, if we wanna come to Him or desire to come to Him, and remember us that thy brother hath ought against thee. I think I'd always read this or often read this like, oh, if I have something against my brother, right? So in other words, if they've done something wrong to me, I should forgive them. But this is actually, I think it's even harder because it's what you're talking about, David, it's actually looking at ourselves, right? What have I done against somebody else? And if I'm gonna be reconciled to God, as Jesus is talking about here in this kind of worship situation, I actually, I can't be fully reconciled to God unless I've been reconciled to others, which means again, not just forgiveness. He does talk about forgiveness here, right? That's one direction this goes. But I also have to be proactive in thinking about the ways that I have done wrong by other people and then seek them out, not wait for them to come forgive me. That is really hard. That's really hard.

(32:01-32:19) David Whippy: Very hard, right? And the essence of why those that are obviously more experienced and more knowledgeable in the field spend so much time on that. How have I added to your burdens and your hardships in this conflict that may be in with you? So yeah, I totally agree with you on that, Patrick.

(32:20-33:04) Jennifer Thomas: And I just, I mean, to finish that, I just, I think the older I get, there's a great quote from The Good Place, the show that basically says that human beings really only have two feelings, two emotions, right? Anger and confusion. And I love that this scripture gets at the root of that and reminds us that that's a choice and that so much of our anger is a decision that we have made made and that if we are to be followers of Christ, we need to walk away from anger and we need to walk towards the resolution of anger. And I'm just going to say up front, so hard, but I do believe that Jesus is calling us here to do an extraordinarily hard thing. And if we do it, he promises us that we will be with him.

(33:06-35:09) David Whippy: I totally agree with you on that. And you know, one more thing, sorry, one more thing that I was thinking about when, about the scripture is, it's actually from the title of your book, Patrick, you know, Renounce War and Proclaim Peace. And the very next line, and maybe this is not the way it's supposed to be read, but it says, you know, seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers and the hearts of the fathers to their children. And maybe, you know, in the church, it's more connected to the amazing work of genealogy. But I think there's some peace building elements in there. You know, it's turning your hearts, right? If it's not with me, I need to have a change of heart, a turning of heart towards not necessarily just fathers, but people that I'm in close relationships with. And these people in the Pacific world, we call it va, which is space. And so my va, if you think about it as rings, my immediate va are those people that are close to me. And this is a theory that's come from one of my colleagues here, Mike Linglinger. where my immediate via are those that are very close to me, maybe my siblings, and this can be different from individuals to each and every one of us, right? So it could be my immediate via is my family, my extended via is maybe my extended family, and then the circles that are outside of that are colleagues and workers and friends that I may interact with. But if we're taking that scripture, renounce war, proclaim peace, and turn my hearts to my fathers, to me that says, I got to turn my hearts to those in my immediate vow, to heal those relationships, study with me, heal those relationships, and then I can be a better advocate, be a better mediator, be a better instrument in the Lord's hands to build and plead for somebody else, if that makes sense.

(35:11-35:17) Patrick Mason: Fantastic. Okay, well, let's read another easy passage that's very simple to implement.

(35:18-35:21) Jennifer Thomas: You thought you dodged the hard one, but you get a worse one, sorry.

(35:22-36:46) Patrick Mason: Well, they're all hard ones, that's the thing. I mean, scholars call these the hard sayings of Jesus. So, and behold, it was written, this is 3 Nephi 12, verses 38 and 39. It's written an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Now, of course, we've all heard this a million times, turn the other cheek and so forth, but this is tough stuff, David, right? You shall not resist evil. Wait a minute, doesn't Jesus resist evil, right? And then doesn't this give license to abusers? I just finished last semester, I taught a course on African-American history. And there were literally, you know, slave owners that would preach this verse out of the New Testament to the enslaved people under their control, right? And it's been used against, you know, abused women and other people, you know, to simply turn the other cheek. So David, help us out here. How do we understand this within a context of peacemaking, Jesus's, not just advice, but I think command, around turning the other cheek and what does he mean by not resisting evil?

(36:47-40:38) David Whippy: Another hard question, another hard passage to try and code through and trying to, I think, implement in my own life here. I feel if someone's being in a way that's bringing conflict into my life, I would as much as possible try to turn away from them. Sometimes I'm justified in my actions to take action against them. I think that's the you know, you can say the natural man, maybe it's not even a natural man, that's maybe we're warranted in our actions towards others because of how they acted towards us. And so going through this scripture here, at this greatest sermon ever given by Christ, kind of flips it on its head, right? So what it means to me is that If I am at a place where I recognize and I think the importance of first peacebuilding starting with me, my not only, obviously it starts with the way that I see this person, but the way that the actions that follow will determine the relationship that I have with this person going forward. One of the core principles that we teach in the peacebuilding program here and which I definitely believe in is that we have to stay turned or our hearts need to be stay turned to others regardless maybe that maybe that's not the qualifier in spite of maybe the wrongdoings or the conflicts that they have towards us that's a hard thing to to think about if david is continuously being this way towards me i am so justified in the way in turning away from him or turning my heart away from him but if we're teaching this in a peace building program to people from around the world we're teaching them now We're asking you to continue to turn your hearts towards them, to invite them to possibly change, to recognize the principle of the Antini Faiha is to see that what they're doing, maybe that can prompt a changing of heart on their side. But it's just hard to say if somebody gives you if somebody's hurting you, to allow them to continue hurting you, to bring peace. That's a difficult thing to understand and to say in classes. So I always say, you know, maybe there's this things that if you see some separation that's needed, if it's abuse, if it's domestic violence, if it's things of that sort, maybe separation is warranted and needed at that point. But you can be away from people, you can be have this physical geographical distance, if you wanna say, but still have your hearts going towards them. I mean, so we have to, that's something that I definitely believe in and something that I spend a lot of time and our faculty here on, in our Peace Bloom program, on so that the students and our people that we're teaching can truly understand about having our hearts turned towards others. in a way that invites them to change, not necessarily for them to change, but invites them to change. So that means a lot for me. If I'm in this person, that means I need to be patient. I need to continuously see them as a child of God. I need to continuously recognize their humanity, recognizing that they have strengths and positives and great things about them in spite of what they're doing towards me. That's a hard thing to fathom and a hard thing to continuously think about. If I am in the conflict and I am continuously being hurt and being… you know and all these negative things are coming towards me so um definitely hard hard scripture but worth it but if you know um something that brings um that has the potential to not only bring peace but change the relationships of those that are in this type of conflict

(40:40-42:18) Jennifer Thomas: Can I just add that I also think one of the things that we often forget is that we live in a highly individualistic society and we think about these things like as individuals, like if Jen alone trying to combat all evil or Jen alone trying to turn the other cheek. But one of the things that's helped me a lot as I've read these hard scriptures is to think about what it means to do those not alone, but with a community of disciples at my back. And I am in a very different position of exposure if I'm just trying to live these hard teachings of Christ on my own with no protection. If I walk into a difficult situation and I'm trying to manage a difficult situation in which someone has maybe been unkind to me or cruel to me, But I've got Patrick and David flanking me on either side, and a deep relationship with Christ. It's a totally different thing. I'm strong in ways that I would otherwise be weak. I have counselors to help me understand how to process. And I just think that it's important for us to remember that often in many of these hard sayings, Christ is not asking us to do these things alone, that he's asking us to find a community of believers, tether ourselves to them, and then do this hard work with other people being our protectors. Like, he, and then if I say, okay, Patrick and David and Christ are gonna be my protectors, and I'm not gonna worry about protecting myself, and I have a deep trust, a relationship of trust, I actually can do that deep work with my soul, knowing that other people are gonna care for me and say, hey, Jen, mm-mm, Okay, now's the line, right? I think that doing that together makes a big difference too.

(42:19-44:09) Patrick Mason: I love that, Jen. I've never thought about it in that way. I think that's exactly right. And I was thinking, as you were talking, David, about the way that this verse calls us to a kind of moral creativity or a moral imagination, that what he's saying is that we can approach conflict with the kind of exact symmetry in mind. Whatever you do to me, I'm going to do to you, right? But all that does is, and as you said, David, we might be warranted, we might be justified, right? That there is a kind of moral symmetry to it. But all that does is it just creates a conflict tornado, right? Because then they're going to do the same thing back to us, and then we'll do the same thing back to them, and then we're just stuck. Right? And I think what Jesus is calling us to here is saying, don't resist evil by doing the same thing that evil did to you. Right? Don't do the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. So don't just mirror what has been done to you. If somebody hits you, don't just mirror back what they did to you, but actually respond with a kind of creativity, with a kind of moral imagination to think about actually how you would engage that relationship, that person, that circumstance, and change the moral calculus. not just to let them dictate the terms of the conflict, but actually you have the moral power within you. Again, recognizing that in some cases, removal from the situation physically may be the most important thing for safety. But you have the power within yourself to be an agent to change the moral calculus of the conflict.

(44:11-45:10) David Whippy: Thank you for that, Patrick, and I definitely agree with what both you and Jennifer said. I love what you said, Jennifer, about Christ by my side, and I think that's, you know, I think I may not have Jennifer by my side or Patrick by my side, but I think the hope is that listening to these types of podcasts, reading the articles and the books that you put out, allows us to have Jennifer and Patrick and Christ by my side. As I go into these conflicts, I can recognize, okay, this is what Jennifer said on the podcast. or this is what I read in Patrick's book, or this is what I learned in church, or as I read my scriptures on what Christ wants us to do. And so I think that while we may not be, or you may not be physically there, I think the lessons that we've learned and we pick up and choose to hold allows these community to be by our side as we walk through these trials in life. So I love that. Thank you for sharing that.

(45:11-45:27) Patrick Mason: Well, there's a bunch of other passages that we could look at in chapters 13 and 14. We won't have time to do that, but there is one more big one that we want to get to in chapter 12. Jen, I'll let you take the lead on that one.

(45:29-46:44) Jennifer Thomas: Well, I actually think it ties really closely to what Patrick was talking about. So I think we're on the same page, Patrick. But Loving Our Neighbor, I'll just read it. And behold, it is written also that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy. But behold, I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you. that ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven." So we're back to that word, being children of God, and we are being invited into this relationship, but in order to participate in that relationship, God is saying to us, we actually have to love the people who have been enemies to us and do good for them, which I think is absolutely the definition of Christ. right, that He has moved out into the world to do good for all of us who in our actions we're creating enmity with Him. Whether we wanted to or not, by sinning we're creating that enmity. So I would just love to have you, David, share with us your thoughts on this. What does it look like as a peacemaker to do this work of loving your enemy in a way that is transformative and brings us better into alignment with Christ?

(46:45-49:52) David Whippy: That's a great question again. As I thought about this question, some of the questions that came to mind are, who are our enemies? Why are they necessarily our enemies? What differences? How do they qualify to be my enemies? And is it a reciprocal thing? Do I see David as an enemy because he sees me as an enemy? Or do I just see David as an enemy because he's doing things that I may not necessarily agree with? Or maybe a lot of times the community that I'm in doesn't agree with because, OK, I'll move with my community because I identify with them. So I don't agree with David and what he's saying. And I think we can see a lot around that in our world today. Maybe I'll speak for myself. I can see a lot of that around me in the world today, not necessarily only in politics, but in other spaces also. So that's a great question. go beyond that, right? I think in a lot of ways, I think we've touched on one of these principles that can allow us to be children of Christ, children of the Father who is in heaven. I truly believe that I think it starts again with us and going through some deep, genuine soul searching about how am I in this space? What's my way of being? How am I seeing these individuals? Again, this may be philosophical or theoretical things, but I think that if we take these on and not just think about it, but action it and be practical about it in our lives, I believe that we have the potential and the opportunity to invite these individuals that we may frame as enemies. to have a change of heart. And I think it first starts with us to have this change of heart. And again, this is, you know, it's an easy thing to say. It's an easy thing to say. I like to say this in my class. It's an easy thing to say to have a change of heart, but to actually go through the changes yourself means highlighting some things that maybe we don't like about ourselves and the way that I'm connecting, the way that I am, my way of being, how I'm seeing these individuals that I'm categorizing as enemies in this space. And if I continue to categorize them as enemies, as them hurting me, how then can I be a peacemaker, not only with them, but with others? How then can I change the conflict dynamic if I'm continuing to see them as enemies? Can I create peace with an enemy? And maybe that's a question that I have to do a little bit more soul searching on. How can I create peace with an enemy if I continue to see them as an enemy? And maybe that's a question that people far more experienced and knowledgeable than I am can answer. But for me, that's one of the things that's how can I continue to create relationships and move people through my change of heart from one particular perspective to something where I can have a relationship with them.

(49:55-52:00) Patrick Mason: I think that's so important, David, and I love that perspective of just asking that question, who is my enemy? Sort of like Jesus asked the question, who is my neighbor with the Good Samaritan parable. Here, I think he is forcing us or really confronting us with that category. And how much can I cling to that category if I'm gonna try to practice all of these other virtues and practices of the peacemaker? I've had a relationship over the past few years where there were plenty of reasons where this person could have been my enemy and even had done things, and maybe we'd done things mutually to one another where maybe there was some level of enmity. But when I came to see his full humanity, including maybe some reasons or some of the perspectives that he had centered or thought certain things about me, I honestly can say at this point, I can't even think about him in the category of enemy. Right. It's just not that that's not what he is to me. And and so I think that is what peacemaking can do on a very fundamental level is actually shift our categories. shift the way we see the world. And I do think, and I love this, that Jesus gives us the pray for them, who despitefully use us. Prayer is an incredibly powerful tool of the peacemaker, especially the religious peacemaker, right? There are secular peacemakers. But for those of us who do believe in God, Let's not leave that kind of tool out of the toolkit. Prayer is an incredibly powerful tool.

(52:02-53:42) Jennifer Thomas: And can I just add one more thing? I think sometimes we tend to think of this, again, as very personal. Like, who are my enemies, the people that have done me wrong or that I have done wrong to that we have a personal relationship with? But this is maybe just related to my work in the political sphere. I watch something happening that is I don't even know, getting amplified daily, where we are watching a force at work in the world that is creating enmity out of nothing. Relationships where there should be no enmity, where there wasn't 10 years ago, where there is not actually a personal relationship, but where people have come to hate and distrust and devalue one another simply because of voices in their ecosystem that are telling them to do that. And this is a moment where I believe that the disciples of Christ have the opportunity to sort of act, if we really will be peacemakers, if we will take this to heart, Christ inoculates us against those efforts, and they can find no purchase in our communities, right? Because we are committed not to have enmity created where none is warranted. And by doing that, we can sort of almost become again, using the word of inoculation, we can sort of create a space in which that hatred and that enmity is not able to amplify and grow. And so I would encourage us all to really think about not only just our personal relationships, but what are the ways that we're seeing enmity created and manipulated in the world around us? And what is our role as peacemakers in terms of stopping that? and say, no, no, no, I will not allow this level of enmity to be created in my society and I will speak out against it.

(53:44-54:39) David Whippy: No, thank you for sharing that. And again, I think that has, you're talking about, you know, what you're talking about that Jennifer has created, you know, has broken up relationships and in families and because of these different beliefs and you can say different tribes and different ways of thinking and perspectives. And I definitely think that that's a space where we as disciples of Christ as peace builders, religious peace builders can have a great influence and play a part in in helping people recognize that I'm not gonna be swayed or I'm not gonna be taken by these philosophies, these ways of thinking, because I recognize that my beliefs and my values are founded on these principles that hold me to be a peacemaker.

(54:39-54:59) Patrick Mason: Well, this is great. I mean, David, these passages are so rich. Obviously, they merit a lifetime of reflection and discussion, not just 45 minutes. David, any other thoughts or reflections as you think about this sermon and Jesus's call to live the life of a peacemaker?

(55:01-57:12) David Whippy: Yeah, I mean, just one quick thought because I We're talking about turning our hearts and being peacemakers and trying to move from seeing individuals in a certain light to see them as, like you said, Patrick, they're not an enemy. I can't see them in this particular light. I think a lot of times where people, from my experience of people that I work with, is people are seeking forgiveness, right? They want some, in some sort of way, to either be forgiven or receive forgiveness. And a lot of times, and what comes to mind is the idea from something that I read earlier in my academic career, an idea from Kerry Warner, that forgiveness has to be done not only by the person seeking forgiveness, but the person who, the perpetrator, if that makes sense. Because if I have done wrong to some, somebody has done wrong to me, I think a lot of times I'm thinking I'm gonna, I have to wait. It's up to me when I can forgive them. But from Terry Warner's readings, and again, I'm still going through them and trying to understand them better to be able to better articulate it, teach it in classes, I need to seek forgiveness of them because of the way that I'm thinking about them. I may be creating an enemy of them in my mind and holding them into a certain space because of what they have done to me. And maybe it's right that they seek forgiveness from me, but I should also in some small way seek forgiveness from them because of the way that I am seeing them, because the way I'm seeing them, maybe I'm building a negative community around. being the natural man and saying, this is what they did to me. I'm gathering allies in that space. So that's something that always stuck to me about trying to improve relationships, trying to have a better way of being towards individuals, about forgiveness and trying to right the wrongs that I, even though others have wronged me, I may have to make amends. Even if I see myself, even if I'm just surviving through the facts, others see me as the victim. I need to make amends also in these relationships.

(57:14-59:02) Jennifer Thomas: So I guess one of the last ones that I would like to close with is the scripture in 3rd Nephi, chapter 14, verse 21. And that is basically that says, not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. And as I was reading the scripture in preparation for this podcast, I start to cry a little bit, I felt that indictment through my soul. I thought, okay, so I profess myself as a disciple. I believe in Jesus Christ. I would hope that people see me as claiming to follow Him. But am I just one of those people that is saying, Lord, Lord? Or am I one of the people that is sincerely doing His will? And I think the things that have been outlined to us, that Christ outlines in this sermon for us, is Him expressing to us what is His will. His will is that we would forgive our enemies. His will is that we would turn the other cheek. His will is that we would do all of these things. And it's easy for me to just be like, oh, maybe that's not His will. Maybe if I do these other things, I'll… Maybe he doesn't really mean this. So anyway, I would just love it, David, if you would close out kind of sharing with us what this sermon has meant to you and how has it called you to change and to develop your discipleship in a way that will allow you to truly not be just one of those people that calls out Lord, Lord, but that is truly doing His will. Because I think we both see you as doing that. So we'd love to have you share with us a little bit more about how this sermon has called that out of you.

(59:03-01:02:42) David Whippy: Thank you for that question, Jennifer. This is, you know, one of my favorites, the whole chapter in itself, chapters in the Book of Mormon. I just love the idea of Christ going to the Americas and talking to the saints there. And this, that scripture, you know, not only those lord lord but those that do the will of my father which is in heaven right i think that um and that's one of my my my my life goals one of the vocations that i see myself hopefully is that i and the work that i'm doing um allows me and is it qualifies in a lot of ways um as doing the the will of my of my father in heaven i don't think that uh I don't think that in a lot of ways… Sometimes I think maybe I should be going and doing more practical work in the community. But I've loved the work that I am able to balance that doing work at the communities in some spaces, but actually teaching children, teaching our young people to be better advocates for Christ and better advocates for peace building, because I think they're connected. I don't think I'll be able to do this work without my, and again, this can be different from others, I don't think I'll be able to be a peacemaker and be an effective peace builder without my beliefs in the gospel of Jesus Christ and what he continues to teach me daily as I read his works, read the words of his servancy on earth, so that I can, as you said, Jennifer, continually have him by my side. I don't think I'll be successful in any way or form in this space without Jesus Christ teachings. And so I hope that when I, you know, I don't want to go into much depth about this, but when the day comes and I'm able to talk story and be judged that I can, in some small way, you know, be said that I've done some of the work that he's wanted me to do while I was here. And so a part of my vocation is helping others find their vocation and be peacemakers in this space that I'm in. And I definitely see, you know, I've had great mentors and friends in the field that I recognize their work, and I definitely see that what you're doing, Jennifer, what Christine's doing, and Patrick with this, not only this podcast, but your individual work, is doing the will of the father. I think that In a lot of ways, we're inviting people to change their hearts and change their lives. I mean, the invitation's out there. It goes to their hearts, but it's their prerogative whether they take that into their hearts and make them themselves. That's a decision that we can't take away from them. So I'm trying every day to do the will of the Father in the way that I am in school, in my way of being towards others. And one day, you know, I hope he can say, my good and faithful servant, you know, thank you for your work. And I hope that I can continue to be an instrument in his hands as I do this work throughout my time here.

(01:02:43-01:03:02) Patrick Mason: I think you certainly are. Thank you, David. Thanks for all of this. Thanks for all the incredible work that you and your colleagues are doing at BYU-Hawaii to train an entire generation of Latter-day Saint peace builders to go out and do the work of Jesus all around the world. So thanks for everything you are and all you're doing.

(01:03:03-01:03:14) David Whippy: Thank you, Patrick. Thank you, Jenny, for having me on again. It's been a joy. Always a big supporter of your work and your podcast. I have my students listen to it. I have my students read your work. So, you know, love it. Great.

(01:03:14-01:03:14) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you. Thank you.

(01:03:17-01:03:36) Patrick Mason: Thanks everybody for listening today. We really appreciate it. We just want to invite you to subscribe to the podcast and also to rate and review it. We love hearing feedback from listeners, so please email us at podcast at mweg.org. We also want to invite you to think about ways that you can make peace in your life this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

(01:03:41-01:03:57) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for listening to Proclaim Peace, a proud member of the Faith Matters Podcast Network. Faith Matters holds expansive conversations about the restored gospel to accompany individuals on their journey of faith. You can learn more about Faith Matters and check out our other shows at faithmatters.org.