Episode 13 // The Holy Work of Peacemaking: Insights from Sarah Perkins

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In this episode, Jennifer and Patrick are joined by Sarah Perkins to discuss Abinadi from the Book of Mormon, highlighting his role as a bold prophet delivering a message of repentance and calling for change. They draw parallels between Abinadi and other prophets throughout history who speak out against societal injustices. The hosts reflect on the importance of discerning true authority from those who simply criticize without offering solutions. Join them as they explore the timeless lessons from Abinadi's story that are relevant in today's world.

Timestamps

[00:01:34] True prophets preach divine redemption.

[00:06:42] Limits to dialogue.

[00:10:36] Defining peace beyond conflict.

[00:11:29] Effective conflict management.

[00:17:02] Abinadi's powerful discourse.

[00:22:16] Speaking Truth to Power.

[00:24:22] Peacemaking and addressing injustice.

[00:28:20] Peacemaking and Redemption.

[00:31:20] Fighting for justice against injustice.

[00:34:33] Recognizing real people in change.

[00:38:26] Dialogue and understanding in activism.

[00:44:04] Navigating values in peacemaking.

[00:45:48] Courage and confidence in peacemaking.

[00:50:05] Restored gospel and faith matters.

TRANSCRIPT:

(00:03-00:06) Jennifer Thomas: Welcome to the Proclaim Peace Podcast. I'm Jennifer Thomas.
(00:06-00:12) Patrick Mason: And I'm Patrick Mason. And this is the podcast where we apply principles of the gospel and read the Book of Mormon to become better peacemakers.

(00:15-00:16) Jennifer Thomas: How are you today, Patrick?

(00:16-00:18) Patrick Mason: I'm doing great. How are you doing, Jen?

(00:18-00:19) Jennifer Thomas: I'm doing OK.

(00:19-01:34) Patrick Mason: Good. So I am excited to talk about our topic today as we move through the Book of Mormon. Kind of the next pivotal figure as we go through the book is Abinadi. And Abinadi is, I think, such an interesting figure within the Book of Mormon. He is, I think, one of the two paradigmatic prophet figures. Obviously, we have Jesus Christ, right, who is the paradigm of everything. good and true and holy. But I think Abinadi and Samuel the Lamanite are these two prophets who very much like the prophets in the Old Testament, just show up out of nowhere. And they've got a message to deliver. We know almost nothing about either one of them in terms of their biography, their background, where they go afterwards. I mean, it's just like this, they come with the pure, you know, undiluted word of God to testify against the sins of a degraded people, and especially their leaders, to call for repentance, to call for change. And so these are two bold voices that are unsparing in their indictment of injustice that they see in society.

(01:34-03:02) Jennifer Thomas: So one of the things that I think I wanted to point out about this was that we live in a world right now where we hear a lot of people who think they have the authority and the wisdom to give unsparing indictments of all of us. It seems like that's all we have. Right, that's all we have are these people that show up and kind of yell at all of us. But to me, one of the things that I was thinking about this episode that came so forcefully to mind was the fact that both Samuel and Abinadi, while they give this unsparing message, every single time they are used to pivot people to a source of good outside themselves where they can find redemption and hope. So they're not leaving people in their sins, and they're not just lambasting them for them, but they're preaching of Christ and encouraging people to turn to Christ and to embrace the possibility of the peace that he's offering to them. I think the thing that I want to put a pin in at the beginning of this conversation is the fact that true and sincere prophets don't just preach doom, gloom, horror, and wrath, right? But they are always offering us a divine pathway out. You know, Abinadi uses those beautiful words from Isaiah where he says, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings. that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord who has redeemed his people, him who has granted salvation unto his people. So he sort of shifts that original Isaiah quote to talk about those who are publishing peace are those that help turn people to the redemptive power of Christ.

(03:03-04:16) Patrick Mason: Yeah, I think Benedict is so powerful precisely because he is so Christ-centered. He is so Christ-focused. He just has this laser focus on living out the law and understanding the law in anticipation of the Messiah. As I was reading these passages again, preparing for this, I was really struck by the way that, contrary to a lot of what we see in the world today, Abinadi is not a partisan. He's not in it for himself. He's not in it to win it. He is not trying to score points. He just has a message, and he wants to point people to Christ. And he even says, in chapter 13, verse 9, he says, I finish my message, then it matters not whither I go, if it so be that I'm saved. Like, it doesn't matter what happens to me. He literally is like the message. And he's pointing people to Christ, who, of course, is the one who publishes peace and is the Prince of Peace. So he's a remarkable figure and I think most people today are not really so much like Abinadi, even if they think they are.

(04:16-04:47) Jennifer Thomas: And I think very much we'll see later in chapters as we'll talk about the fruits of this, right? Because what we see, what the Book of Mormon doesn't share with us is specifically how Alma rose up and like tossed Noah out on his ear and changed the government. But we find that the real important thing that Alma took away from that was this knowledge of Christ and this desire to recreate a society that was built on the peace that Abinadi was offering through Christ.

(04:49-06:42) Patrick Mason: Yeah. Yeah. So for our listeners, we want to recognize and point out that actually what we're talking about today in Abinadi strikes a very different figure than what we talked about in the last episode with Becca Kurl. So that was all about dialogue. It was about the narratives that we tell about ourselves and others. And I think the Book of Mormon set us up very nicely for this. We didn't write this. We're just reading the book alongside everybody else. But there's always these kinds of tensions. There's these paradoxes. There's a time for dialogue. There's a time for prophethood. There's not just kind of a one-size-fits-all way to peace and to truth and to goodness. And so So in the past episode, we talked about how some of those narratives that we tell about ourselves and others can be an obstacle to peacemaking. And that really what we want to do is to build bridges, to reconnect broken relationships, to support civil dialogue. We need to be humble. We need to sort of be self-aware. of our own prejudices, the things that we have about our own perceptions that might not be right. So that is absolutely true, and we saw that very much on display. But while dialogue I think is so important, like so, so, so, so important, it also can't fill all the gaps. It can't accomplish everything. Again, no one tool in the toolbox can do everything. I think in particular, dialogue is difficult in terms of how well it can connect to people who are acting in bad faith, people who maybe have corrupt motives, people who are willing to possibly use force or even violence to enforce their point of view. They're just simply not interested in dialogue.

(06:42-08:06) Jennifer Thomas: Exactly. And I think one of the remarkable things about Abinadi is he's a fantastic example of the limits to dialogue. So we see that he tries initially to explain to the people what they're doing wrong, and he gives, you know, the people in power, most notably Noah and his priests, an opportunity to pivot. But he ultimately knows, because he's been told by the Lord, that the men he's speaking to are just unequivocally wrong, right? They're just, they're in error. And most importantly, they are leading a whole people astray and in error. And I think that what we do want to point out at the beginning of this episode before we go ahead and talk about speaking truth to power is that very few of us will ever be able to move towards conflict with the level of assurance that Abinadi has because very, very rarely are we acting as he did in such a completely disinterested way with an uncompromised commitment to eternal truths and a willingness to essentially pay with a great deal of sacrifice. So it's important to acknowledge up front that the truths that Abinadi is talking from are the source of his power. And so he has a divine right to be as emphatic as he is. But we need to just put in everyone's head that very rarely do we have the right and the ability to speak that way to others in the same way that Abinadi does.

(08:07-08:16) Patrick Mason: Yeah, totally. I mean, he is a singular figure. He's clearly a kind of Christ figure. He's a type and a shadow of Christ, and none of us are Christ.

(08:16-08:20) Jennifer Thomas: And when we make the mistake and speak with that level of authority when we don't have it, we do more harm than good.

(08:22-09:02) Patrick Mason: Yeah, exactly. So that's why all the things you said about Abinadi, there's so much that's unique about his story. It's instructive. We can learn from it. I can't tell you how many times I've read his message. It's just bracing. It's like having a bucket of ice water just dumped on your head, and it's like, okay, now I have to respond to these prophets' words. But ultimately, he dies before he sees the impact of his message, and he leaves it to others to carry on. So that's why I'm really excited about the conversation we're going to have today, Jen, and our guests, because it's how do we talk about this? How do we speak truth to power, but maybe in a way that more of us are called to than in the way that Abinadi was.

(09:03-10:36) Jennifer Thomas: When Patrick and I were talking about who to invite to tackle this section of the Book of Mormon with us, I will have to admit that there was a very short list of people that we felt could do it justice and not kind of tip to either one of these directions. At the top of the list was Sarah Perkins, and we are so grateful that she was willing to talk to us today. Sarah is currently a member of our senior leadership team at MWAG, where she specifically ensures that as an organization, we remain true to our principle of peacemaking. She's also a student at Boston's Brandeis University, where she's finishing up her PhD in literature and theology. She and her husband, Josh, are remarkable documentary film directors. They do this work together. And their latest film was The Basement Talks, which was previously known as The Abortion Talks. The film itself, you'll hear, we hope to talk with her a little bit more about it in this episode, is an extraordinary case study in the costs and benefits of peacemaking. And I know that many of our listeners have probably seen it in conjunctions with showings that MWEG has offered over the last year. Sarah and Josh also recently wrote and published the Book of Mormon Storybook for Little Saints, which is an interpretation that has helped to bring the scriptures to life for many young readers, and speaking for myself and some older ones as well. Sarah and her husband and two young boys are currently living in rural Idaho, and we're so happy to have her with us. Welcome, Sarah. As always, we want to start today by centering our conversation on peace. And we're wondering if you would mind starting out by sharing with us how you personally define it.

(10:36-12:02) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, um, that's a big question. I think for me, what peace is not is the absence of conflict, or like complete and unmitigated conflict resolution. And I also don't think it's like what happens after you've won your side's political victory or social victory, because that can change really quickly. Right. As soon as the next election happens, those can be reversed. Supreme Court's can change. And so I think more often peace is achieved when you move beyond your base and reach people who have really different sorts of experiences and perspectives than you. and people who are able to push against your ideas and ensure that the piece that you imagine works for more people and will last beyond the current election cycle. And so in that sense, I think I would say peace is lasting. Peace is something that in practice is usually pretty loud. because it requires really good people with really different ideas of how to do good in the world to be able to come together and tolerate each other well enough to practice effective conflict mitigation, conflict management, conflict control, so that they can create an environment whereby a pretty diverse society, people in a really diverse society can live meaningful and fulfilling lives and actually be able to do good in the world.

(12:02-14:18) Patrick Mason: Wow, I love that. That's such a terrific, terrific definition and connects to a lot of what we've been talking about on the podcast. I like the way that you talked about the way that that piece has to draw upon and engage with different perspectives, different experiences that people have. So I'm going to embarrass you for just a little bit. I hope you're okay with this. But I think this is one of the great strengths of the Book of Mormon storybook that you and Josh put together. So I'm just going to advertise this for all of our listeners. You should absolutely go out and get this. It is phenomenal. It's a beautiful book. The art is fantastic. The story is incredible. The way that you render the Book of Mormon in a kind of three dimensionality that we don't often get with all of the characters. So taking into account those experiences, the real lives, what do you say, real stories about real people? Is that the kind of tagline? Yeah. So I just want to tell a little story about it and embarrass you, and then you can respond as you wish. So I've got an eight-year-old daughter, and my wife and I were asked to substitute in primary a few weeks ago. And it happened to be the week when we were talking about Abinadi in primary, which is exactly what we're going to be talking about today. And I was sort of thinking about, okay, how are we going to teach this to the kids? It can be kind of a tough section for kids. So I opened up the Book of Mormon storybook, and I was like, that's it. That's how I want to teach this primary class. So literally, we took the book. We sat in a circle with the kids. We read from there. There's this great little part. I don't have it in front of me, but there's this great part. You talk about how the priests of Noah had confused the red and the yellow, and they'd made orange. So we did this. We brought paints, and we had the kids combine and make orange and everything, and we talked about it. And it was so beautiful. And I was thinking, this is exactly how I want to teach the Book of Mormon because they understood these characters, the people, the message, overwhelmingly God's love, and these different perspectives. So just thank you for everything. Thank you for that incredible book.

(14:18-14:20) Sarah Perkins: Thank you. I'll pay you later for saying that.

(14:22-14:43) Patrick Mason: I mean, tell me, how does that, and I know you've talked about this a little bit before, but how do, you know, you're thinking about peace, you're thinking about engaging different perspectives. How did this go into creating the book and for you sort of thinking about and re-narrating the Book of Mormon, reading it differently than I think we oftentimes do?

(14:43-15:26) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, well, so for me, reading the Book of Mormon in preparation to write the Book of Mormon storybook. I was just struck by the really strong resonances that I felt in my own communities where there was a lot of othering and tribalism and how it doesn't work out very well for the people of Mormon, right? And then also these really, really beautiful passages of people trying to create peace in difficult moments, trying to reach across these really, really immense divides. And I think trying to draw out those stories more for my boy, my son, who's going to be inheriting a world that's often pretty divisive, and have to try to find a way through that.

(15:27-16:04) Patrick Mason: Yeah, I just think we've got lots of other things to talk about, but I just wanted to say thank you for that, because I think it's without at all diminishing the potency of the message of the Book of Mormon, I actually think the way that you've talked about it really lifts up and enhances the core message of the Book of Mormon. Yeah, just thank you for the way that you've seen deeply into this sacred text and recovered meaning that maybe we sometimes don't see just because of familiarity and repetition. Sometimes we need to tell our best and oldest stories in new ways in order to hear them all over again.

(16:04-16:58) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you so much. Well, and I'll just add to that, that I think that for both Patrick and I, this reading of the Book of Mormon through a lens of peace has probably had a fairly similar effect on us, that seeing real people in real situations, like not seeing them so much as individuals there to just give us a theological message or share doctrine with us, but trying to see them as people in situ, in relationships with one another, I think the book has revealed just a depth just a wealth of information to me as I just tried to understand how people were living with one another and alongside one another, and how the gospel could inform that. So I am with Patrick 100%. To all of our listeners, we couldn't recommend more that you buy and share these books. I find them delightful as an adult. I don't have any little people in my life, and we've really loved them in our family. Thank you so much.

(16:58-17:01) Patrick Mason: Okay, so should we dive in and talk about Abinadi?

(17:01-17:01) Sarah Perkins: Let's do it.

(17:02-19:46) Patrick Mason: All right, we don't have any paints here on the podcast today. So we'll just have to paint with words. All right. Boy, there's so much we can talk about with Binadi's discourse, these chapters that we have. I mean, he appears literally out of nowhere. He is in many ways the I think he is one of the two people in the Book of Mormon that is closest to the Hebrew prophets from the Old Testament. Here I'm talking about Isaiah, Amos, you know, Jeremiah, that's kind of in the second half of the Hebrew Bible. And oftentimes these are people who come out of nowhere, they're on the margins, they're not kind of in the center or the power of society, but they come out and they have this message. And probably my favorite book about the prophets is a book that was written by Abraham Joshua Heschel. He was a great 20th century rabbi, maybe one of the best, maybe the top rabbi in America in the 20th century. And he wrote a book called The Prophets. And he talked about this a lot. And I just want to read one little passage, and this will get us into thinking about Abinadi. This is what Rabbi Heschel says about prophets. The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. God has thrust a burden upon his soul. He has bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. Frightful is the agony of man. No human voice can convey its full terror. Prophecy is the voice that God has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profaned riches of this world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of God and man. God is raging in the prophet's words. God is raging in the prophet's words. And this is what we get with Abinadi. He comes into this context. you can hear God raging in his words as he speaks against Noah and his priests, and he introduces conflict into this setting. So, we oftentimes think about peace, I mean, you mentioned it earlier, sometimes we think about peace as the absence, the removal of conflict, Well, here's a Benedict as a prophet who's bringing in conflict, and in fact, Noah recognizes it. Noah points it out and says, hey, like you're disturbing the peace. That's basically what he's arrested on. So how do you think about this? You've spent so much time in these kinds of spaces where people disagree. Why and how does peacemaking require us sometimes to actually bring conflict to the surface, to invite discomfort about something that you honestly feel isn't right? And how do we do that productively instead of it turning into just a conflict tornado?

(19:46-20:04) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, first of all, that was a remarkable definition that I'd never heard before. So thank you so much for that. And the imagery that that conjured for me is actually from a short story, which is not a children's story. Do not read this to children called The Ones Who Walk Away from Amalas. I don't know if you guys are.

(20:04-20:06) Patrick Mason: Oh, yes, I just read that, actually. Yeah.

(20:06-23:05) Sarah Perkins: Yeah. And it's by Ursula K. Le Guin. And there's this this perfectly halcyon community where there's no crime and no poverty and no disagreement and everything is lovely and beautiful. And then literally beneath the surface of that community, there's a tortured child. And everybody knows about the child. Everybody knows it's there. But they're afraid that if they bring that up to the surface, and if they acknowledge it in any real way, then it will disrupt everything. And the whole community will fall apart. But there are people from the community, from Amalas, who actually go down and look on the child, and look at the child. And many of them end up walking away. They leave Amalas. I think part of the critique of the story is that the community was so afraid of disrupting the peace that it actually begins fraying at the seams. People are leaving the community because they cannot abide the circumstances by which it exists. And I think that's actually a really effective metaphor for the role of speaking truth to power, of disrupting the peace in peace work. I don't think it will do to ignore serious cases of injustice and poverty and suffering that often underlay various communities. And I think it's actually really vital to the health of a continuing and thriving community to draw that out and to face it honestly, even acknowledging that it will be disruptive and uncomfortable and ugly. and that facing it will also take a lot of courage. That said, I think it's also really vitally important as you're doing that work to recognize the fact that as you're doing that you're always speaking to humans, like fully fleshed like often thoughtful humans who have ideas and experiences that might be different than yours, but that are still real and valid. And that you can't just get around or get across, um, if you're wanting to make any meaningful lasting progress on this issue. And actually there is when we were making our documentary, the basement talks, um, we interviewed Andrew Sudorkin who wrote this remarkable essay called dialoguing with evil. And in our conversation, he talked about flat earthers. And he said, there's pretty good research now that shows that most people who believe the earth is flat will eventually change their mind. They'll eventually come to the belief that the earth is actually spherical. But then what? Like what happens after that is actually really, really important. Do we just dismiss them as uninformed and uneducated and stupid and leave them to the next conspiracy theory that rolls around? Or do we do the really hard work of re-enfolding them into the conversation and re-enfranchising them as a fully fleshed member of this community? And I don't think that we're going to achieve real lasting peace until we've done the work of turning enemies into friends.

(23:06-24:36) Jennifer Thomas: So I want to jump off at that because I couldn't agree more. And I think that one of the tensions that we, the tension points that we find ourself in in our society right now is sort of between two groups. There's a group of people that argue, hey, we're looking too much at what's wrong. We need to ignore what's wrong. We need to like celebrate that we are awesome. And then we've got a group of people maybe arguing on another side at the extremes who are like, everything is bad. Everything is broken. None of this was worth it. We just need to kind of abandon ship and walk away. It just occurs to me that we can learn from Abinadi here in the sense that he finds himself in a situation where there's clearly an abuse of power happening at a systemic level. He is called quite literally from God to address that. I think we can stipulate based on our earlier conversation that that is a critical component of peacemaking. That people need to be willing to call out you know, injustice and evil when it's happening and face it within their own society. But how can we tell the difference between that part of peacemaking. And then when it tips over to the other side of just like burn the whole thing down and walk away, right? Like, so, so I guess I want to hear from you a little bit about that tension between the willingness to look things clearly and look at things clearly and say, this is what is wrong, but do it with love and patience and a desire to kind of build. And I would love to hear your thoughts about that.

(24:36-25:32) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, actually, well, so I'll say when I found out that we'd be talking about Abinadar, I was like, And part of that is because I've been really uncomfortable in the past seeing how Abenadi is used as a sort of justification for calling ward members and stake members and neighbors and community members to repentance. And that just, to me, feels like the completely least effective way of ever bringing over people to whatever it is, whatever action you're trying to encourage, right? Like, I think absolutely there is, a really, really important place for speaking truth to power, particularly when you're faced with systems and institutions that are creating great harm. But I would say most of our time in day-to-day interactions with people, most people we're interacting with are not pulling together hundreds of concubines for their pleasure.

(25:34-25:48) Jennifer Thomas: Let's just know what we're dealing with here. Those of us that are calling it out really often don't have clean hands either. Yeah. I think it's important to recognize that before we get up on that high horse, do we really have a clear vision of things or we just enjoying calling someone out?

(25:48-28:19) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, absolutely. Even when it is necessary to call, I would prefer to try to separate people and institutions, but whatever it is, to call something out. and to identify a situation of injustice, you're not done. Like, there's still actually a lot of work to do in actually trying to bring people together, sway hearts and minds towards repairing that damage in some way. And I think that… And you don't get to choose, right? You don't get to choose the people who are in your community or what they think or what they believe. And that can feel really, really frustrating and… And I think we see, I've certainly observed in our politics, some tendency to try to just bypass the reality of other people and their input. And in myself, even, I think in any sort of advocacy, there's a tendency to just want to push forward your idea of Zion, your idea of what the nation or the policy should be. But that's not one realistic And two, I don't think it's actually even desirable. We really need to depend on people who disagree with us to sort of reveal our weak points, to challenge us where they are strong, where their perspectives are strong, and to learn how to navigate those differences with kindness and grace. And that's not something that I'm always awesome at doing. But I think it's helpful to remember that those people who I imagine are in my way are actually a gift and are minimally part of the world that I want to bless. And I think that's actually sort of the story that Abinadi follows, where we have somebody who comes and boldly identifies a problem, boldly identifies where an injustice is happening. And then Alma sort of carries the torch from there. Abinadi plants in Alma waters. And they manage to create a society built on these sort of conflict management techniques, where they literally covenant together that if anybody in the society is feeling pain or unfairness, everybody else is going to try to sit with them and understand where they're coming from. And in that way, move forward in a way that feels more Christian. And Alma says, like, this is the work that God wants us to do. This is what it means to take the name of Christ upon us, is to try to sit with each other and to navigate this peace communally.

(28:20-29:08) Jennifer Thomas: So I love so much the way you highlight that, that I think we sometimes think of Abinadi as this prophet that stood and harangued, right? When in fact, the great gift of his work is, that's not what Alma took away from it. He didn't take away from it the great harangue. That happened to him. It affected change in his heart. But what he took away from Abinadi's speeches was all of the positive, the call to Christ, the call to community, the call to be a peacemaker. and to provide for redemption. And so I love how that you've pointed that out, that the work of peacemaking, there's only part of it that is calling out others, but the real message, if you're a true peacemaker, isn't just bringing the truth, but it's bringing more and more, you know, it's not bringing the negative truth, it's bringing the positive truth.

(29:08-29:13) Sarah Perkins: Right, and that work is much slower. It's a really, really long tail to real progress. Yeah.

(29:14-31:00) Patrick Mason: Yeah, I absolutely love the way that you frame that, that I think Alma, we oftentimes just talk about Alma as like Abinadi's convert, right? And that's absolutely true, but it's actually a pretty limited way to think about it. I mean, Alma is finishing the mission that Abinadi starts. Abinadi essentially passes the torch to Alma, but You know, Abinadi is this like bright white flame, right? I mean, it's just burning bright, so bright that you can barely even look at it, right? And just the purity of the message that is really hard to hear. I think even sometimes today reading is like, wow, that's pretty strong stuff, right? It is undiluted. Again, it's God raging in these words. And that is necessary. The prophetic voice is absolutely necessary. And of course, what does Abinadi do? He calls us back to the words of previous prophets, right? He calls us back to Moses. So there is this prophetic voice, which is so important. But most of us are called to be almas, not Abinadis. Most of us are called to be builders. Most of us are called to build and create that covenant community and do, as you said, that long haul work, which is like Alma had his ups and downs and he had his family issues and all this kind of stuff, right? Abinadi comes and burns bright and then is gone. And I didn't want to push that metaphor too far because obviously things don't end well for him in terms of fire. So how do we do this? I mean, when Abinadi does this, he comes and he's speaking in a context where people are more powerful than him, right? He is just one guy. He is speaking in this court, there are all these priests, Noah literally has an army, he has soldiers and so forth.

(31:00-31:01) Jennifer Thomas: Power differential is huge there.

(31:02-31:20) Patrick Mason: Yeah, exactly. So how do we think about doing this? So when you feel convicted, recognizing that we bring this kind of love and humility into the conversation, as you've talked about, always humanizing the other side. But how do we navigate those kinds of power differentials?

(31:20-34:54) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, well, so one of the weirder parts of my resume or Google search results is almost two years ago now, we lost custody of our kids because of a false child abuse allegation. And armed police officers and social workers from the Department of Children and Families came to our house at one in the morning. They had waited for the courts to close before they made the decision to remove so that they didn't have to go and get a warrant. They didn't have to appear in front of a judge to come and take the kids. And so they came without any sort of paperwork at one in the morning when it was most traumatizing for our family. and they took our kids at gunpoint, right? And that was obviously really dramatic for everybody in our family. My four-year-old now, five-year-old now, he spent months having night terrors every night, waking up screaming for many hours. And I think harder than that, actually, was after we finally got out of Massachusetts and got custody back, we started getting calls very late at night from other families saying, How do I get my baby back? It's gone. My baby is gone. And so I think through that, we felt really convicted that we were in a place of more privilege than a lot of these families who tended to be poorer. And we had a moral obligation to try to do something. And so we filed a lawsuit. It's just really, really hard to sue departments in the government. The lawyers could explain this better. But it's really, really hard to sue departments. And so we filed a lawsuit against the individuals involved in the removal of our kids. And the goal of the lawsuit is to change precedent so that the rule of law works better, so that CPS departments actually have to appear in front of a judge before they can show up at your house with guns and take your kids. completely believe in the importance of that lawsuit. And it's been difficult to navigate at an interpersonal level because the policemen who came that night were very dear friends of my neighbor at the time, who I was I am so close to. We actually, the night that they were taking our kids, we called her at one in the morning and she came out and she watched for like two hours while they took our kids. And then she held me. I sobbed into her chest because I couldn't bear to watch my kids drive away. And so she called, she found out about this lawsuit looking through headlines and she called me and she said, like, I think that what happened to you was wrong, but this seems wrong too. They were just doing their jobs. They didn't want to be there. And I tried to respond to her, but I just assumed that this relationship that I cared so deeply about was over, that I would never hear from her again. And it was this really, really potent moment for me of recognizing, again, just the real people in front of you any time you're trying to make change. And you can't let that go. That's really, really vital in any part of this work. but particularly when you're drawing out injustice and trying to productively find a way forward through it. And I'll just add that this last Christmas, she sent a package in the mail with Christmas gifts for my sons. And I was so touched. I was so touched that even across this really, really intractable divide, she was prioritizing a relationship. Remarkable woman.

(34:55-36:09) Jennifer Thomas: I am so touched by the way you describe your courage to sort of tackle this difficult thing. So you, again, are faced with the same power differential. As you've already explained, there's not even a clear pathway for you to achieve justice, right? You're trying to find tricky ways to try to accomplish that. And I think we see that same thing happening with Abinadi, right? There's this power differential, and yet somehow he, like you, has been able to move forward with a great deal of peaceful confidence. And when we were chatting together before the podcast, you'd mentioned how you'd experienced confidence, you experienced confidence when you're entering into conflict, primarily as curiosity. And I love that idea. And I was wondering if you could explain a little bit more about that to our listeners, because I think I traditionally associate confidence with pride. and certainty, right? And you're turning that on its head, and you're associating confidence with humility and curiosity, like an openness to learn. So I'm wondering if you could kind of speak to your own experience about that, and maybe some of your professional and personal experience that has led you to arrive at that really unique viewpoint.

(36:09-36:55) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, well, I'll just say I'm maybe less persuaded that Eben and I is super confident in this moment. And maybe that's just because of my own experience and, like, really difficult conversations with a hostile interlocutor where, like, my voice is shaky and I'm trying to be super articulate, and the experience definitely is not confidence, right? And I tend to make, like, much bolder, more aggressive statements than I think I would in other contexts. And, I mean, if Vinodai is confident, it's a very different sort of confidence than what I've experienced, where I don't think he's sitting there, like, exploring his own ambivalences and trying to get a more nuanced understanding of the people sitting across from him. The situation doesn't allow for that, right? That's not going to happen there.

(36:55-37:01) Patrick Mason: There's not a lot of like on the one hand, but on the other hand, let's talk about this.

(37:01-39:32) Sarah Perkins: Yeah. But but even so, even if he was terrified, which I absolutely would be, I think it's actually just remarkable that he goes into this situation, which is like the opposite of ideal ingredients for a really productive dialogue and faces the lion's den anyways and and opens his mouth and lets whatever comes come and and. yeah, just faces the bad situation and speaks truth to power nevertheless. I think that's so heroic and so remarkable. I think dialogue in its most ideal form is actually pretty, pretty naturally facilitates confidence and the sort of curious confidence. When you're not afraid of the people you're talking with, like, attacking you or judging you or punishing you in some way, then you're much less stressed and defensive and you're able to suddenly become a lot more open to hearing what the people have to say. I think often we enter conversations with this sort of binary, like either you have to convert to their perspective or disprove it entirely. And dialogue ideally lowers those stakes so that you're able to have this really rare and precious opportunity to just explore something together that really matters. And for the Women in the Basement talks, that's the film that Josh and I made about these three pro-life activist leaders and these three pro-choice activist leaders who met together in a conversation for like six years, 150 hours, just to see what came of it after there was a lot of violence in Boston where they were meeting. And they talked about it as a privilege, as a really, really rare opportunity to sit with people with whom you disagree and talk for many, many hours about the thing which you disagree about. And one of the personal impacts for them was that they had this really, really rare opportunity that they had never experienced before to sort of seek out and understand their own uncertainties about their perspectives. because they were party leaders, right? When they're out speaking in the public, there's no room for gray. You have to be really, really clear about the messaging. You have sound points that you're supposed to be making. And there's just no opportunity for them to try to explore places where their perspectives were actually weak. And that was really productive for them, not only in just understanding themselves, but then also being able to go forward into their advocacy with a much clearer heart and mind about what it was that they wanted to accomplish.

(39:33-41:58) Patrick Mason: as you're speaking and as we were preparing for this, I just couldn't stop thinking about Martin Luther King and his letter from a Birmingham jail, which is one of the great documents in all of American history. And he talks about this process that he had come into Birmingham, Alabama, this is in 1963, with a very clear sense of what he wanted to accomplish. They were working on desegregating public facilities and expanding the right to vote and expanding opportunity and equality for African Americans. And he had engaged or tried to engage in dialogue with the city fathers. They had spent time on kind of lower level, sometimes in private conversations, you know, doing a lot of things, you know, privately, trying to lay the groundwork and to resolve this peacefully. And the city fathers dug in their heels, most famously Bull Connor, who was the Commissioner of Public Safety. And so then, of course, the demonstrations began. And when King was thrown into jail for this, essentially for disturbing the peace, very much like Abinadi, he writes this famous letter. And of course, the letter, and I know the two of you know this, but in case anybody listening hasn't read this for a while, the letter is actually a response to a group of moderate white Christian leaders, ministers, and others. who say like, what are you doing? We broadly support what you're talking about, but you're moving too fast. You're upsetting the peace of our community. You've introduced conflict into what had been a peaceful community. And why don't we just give it more time? And these things will work themselves out. And one of the things that the King says in response to them, He says, I'm not afraid of the word tension. I've earnestly opposed violent tension, but there's a type of constructive nonviolent tension, which is necessary for growth. So Sarah, how do you think about this? How does a person know when to be the dialogue partner? and when to be a Benedict or the direct action advocate and marching in the streets.

(41:58-42:01) Jennifer Thomas: Or bring a lawsuit.

(42:01-42:11) Patrick Mason: Exactly. Do something that brings a lot of notoriety and actually introduces conflict. How do we make these kinds of determinations?

(42:11-42:51) Sarah Perkins: Yeah. I mean, I think In my experience, it is so difficult. It's so difficult to know. Like I said, I think for me, I really, particularly when you're functioning as an Abinadi, I really prefer to speak to structures and power structures and specific issues and then to work with humans to address it and to keep those fairly separate. But that's not always possible. And it gets complicated really fast. And so, yeah, I would just say to anybody in that position, It's hard and holy work. I think it is holy work, but it's not easy. It's not easy.

(42:51-43:33) Patrick Mason: How do you manage when some of your own chief values seem to come into conflict? So I hear you when you talk about, for instance, the lawsuit, right? This isn't a pursuit of justice. At the same time, we care about peace. We care about right relationships between people. And so it seems that there's at least a tension here, right? Maybe not a total contradiction, but certainly a tension and certainly a paradox between these values. So how do you go about doing that, navigating when some of your own leading values seem to come into tension with one another?

(43:34-44:04) Jennifer Thomas: And to me, I think a perfect example of that is what you described like you. I don't I know you well enough to know that you're not pursuing this lawsuit to get back personally at that policeman who wreaked havoc on your life. Right. So so those are that to me is the two points of tension. You're trying to achieve justice, but you also have no intention to do harm to an individual. Right. And so but there's a conflict there. So how do you reconcile those things when they sort of come into when they bump up against each other, which happens in peacemaking.

(44:04-45:36) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I really, I do sincerely believe that we have to be actively engaged in building environments whereby peace can emerge. I think it's useful to think of like the Zion pure in heart versus Zion no poor among them. The one sort of is contingent on the idea that people will just like the best sorts of people will be able to build Zion. because they're just the purest and the best. And the other is more like you create an environment whereby people can be their best and create Zion together. And I think certainly in our lawsuit, and I think in many, many different instances of injustices, there's just things that get in the way of good people being good and doing good and being capable to achieve all of the sort of meaning and purpose out of their life that they could. in the right environment. And so I think I feel very convicted about creating environments where people can flourish and live good lives together. And sometimes that's really difficult to navigate because other people get hurt along the way. Good people, people who were just doing their job or who got caught up in systems that they don't really have any control over. And so I don't mean to minimize that. And there's a lot of people suffering that also need to be present in these conversations.

(45:36-45:38) Patrick Mason: Amazing.

(45:38-46:49) Jennifer Thomas: So we typically end this conversation with sort of a canned question where we ask our guests where they turn to find peace. But today we want to do that a little bit differently. As we said earlier, we don't know very much about Abinadi. But what we do know is that he had an incredibly strong sense of both himself and his purpose that allowed him to have the courage to walk into this very difficult situation. He also was willing to be honest and speak truth to power. And I think in many ways, as I've come to know you, this is a beautiful descriptor of you. And so I'm just wondering if you could share with our listeners, as you work to be a peacemaker, I mean, you have emphasized over and over again on this call that this is work. that this is deep and holy work and it doesn't necessarily come easy. So as you work to both be a peacemaker and bring messages of peace to others, I'm just wondering if you could share a little bit more deeply about how you access this courage and this confidence and that we all need to be both committed to peace and to be active peacemakers.

(46:49-48:58) Sarah Perkins: Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me, one of both my greatest sources and my greatest evidences of hope and strength is my kids. I mean, other kids as well, but particularly my kids. I think there have been times in my life when I've been very afraid of people or when I've been very cynical about the trajectory of the world. I mean, like in my PhD program, I studied 20th century literature around the book of Job. So that's like the Holocaust and the lynching. It doesn't get much more bleak than that. But then, shortly after starting my PhD program, I had this little baby. And then he started growing up and I had to teach him about the world and what the world is and what it looks like and what it will be. And I found myself telling him that most people are trying really hard to be good. Most people, almost anywhere you go, you can find helpers. You can find people really working hard to bring light and kindness and goodness into the world. And I think in that way, my child reflected back to me the hope that I actually already had and that I had to have because this one precious world is all that I have to give my kid. I think we betray our own hope in the faces of our kids. And as I've watched this little boy grow up, I've worked on writing the Book of Mormon storybook, which was really sort of a love song to him. I think I've become pretty convinced of the reality of a God who made a very good world and who loves that world and the people in it. And I really, really believe in heavenly parents who created men and women and who said that they are very good. and who ask us, all of us, to find God in each other's faces. And that's work, and it's not easy, and it's long, and it's exhausting, like building Zion and peacemaking and trying to root out injustice without, like, destroying the life of your neighbor. It's very complicated, but it is holy, and it's work that I am so grateful to be involved in and that I hope my boy will carry forward, too.

(48:59-49:35) Jennifer Thomas: Well, Sarah, I think I can speak for Patrick when I say that this has been a really moving conversation, and I relish every opportunity to get your voice out into the world. It has been a pivotal voice in my own head at key moments. You have been a great teacher of me, and I'm just so grateful that we've had the opportunity to share your thoughts today about what it means to be a true, sincere peacemaker when you really are put in positions where you have to speak boldly and clearly and in the face of maybe opposition in power. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today. Thank you so much.

(49:35-49:37) Sarah Perkins: It's been such a pleasure talking with you.

(49:40-49:59) Patrick Mason: Thanks everybody for listening today. We really appreciate it. We just want to invite you to subscribe to the podcast and also to rate and review it. We love hearing feedback from listeners, so please email us at podcast at mweg.org. We also want to invite you to think about ways that you can make peace in your life this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

(50:05-50:20) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for listening to Proclaim Peace, a proud member of the Faith Matters Podcast Network. Faith Matters holds expansive conversations about the restored gospel to accompany individuals on their journey of faith. You can learn more about Faith Matters and check out our other shows at faithmatters.org.